Mr Incredible

Thin oil in the LS1, Test 1.

Miles on oil.....3,342|2316
Miles on unit...90,068|94,343

Element....M1TrSUV...HavDS...uavg
alum..........3...2...4
chromium....1...0...1
iron..........19...3..15
copper.......4...2...34
lead...........0...0...7
tin.............0...0...2
moly...........6..142..60
nickel.........1...0...1
mang..........1...0...2
silver..........0...0...0
titanium......0...0...0
potassium....3...0...1
boron.........32..28..68
silicon..........8...4...6
sodium.........3...1...6
calcium.....2503..1628..2307
magnes.......460..44..293
phosph.......1077..547..737
zinc...........1299..689..880
barium.........0....0....0

Visc (65-78).. 73.7 ... 55.8
Flash >375...445...435
Fuel <2%...<.5% ... <.5%
Antifreeze......0..0
Water...........0..0
Insolubles...... 0.5%... 0.2%

Lab Remarks: Wear is virtually non-existant in this sample. We've seen more wear metals in a virgin oil sample than we found here. Your note implied that this was a rinse phase so we understand the short oil run. Try 4,000 miles for the next sample. Wear will increase but it should read close to universal averages, as that is the mileage upon which the averages are based. The viscosity of the sample was slightly low but isn't a problem and no harmful contaminants were found. At 94,343 miles we have no problems to report.

My remarks: The previous oil that was used for the ARX treatment was Super Tech 10w-30. The oil before that (UOA numbers listed above) was M1 TrSUV 5w-40. This oil was Havoline Deposit Shield 5w-30, chosen for it's low viscosity in the 5w-30 population. Normal viscosity is 59.4 and thinned to 55.8.

The intent was to have a low viscosity oil to splash around and clean off anything the ARX had dissolved and to test the Thinner-Is-Better idea. The oil was not babied while in use. There was city and highway miles, a heaping handful of WOT runs, a lot of two-lane WOT passing of slower cars (I love that in the Z28), and a run up to 112mph. The current fill is Castrol Syntec 5w-30, which is a slightly lower viscosity.

The common thought is that LS1's are supposed to really love a thicker oil, but I don't think it's the thickness as much as the oil itself (GC comes to mind).

It looks to me like LS1's don't mind a thinner oil at all.

Travis99LS1

iTrader: (2)

That is an awesome report man..thanks for posting it. I know i will get hated on for saying this..but from this report, assuming all things remain the same,..the havoline would be a much better choice, instead of Mobil 1 for someone thats just doing 3000 mile oil changes..This report not only proves that you can get good results with a thin oil, but also shows that using a synthetic doesent necessarily mean your getting better wear protection. While were talking about thin oils...my freind currently has Amsoil 0W20 in his Trailblazer SS...he has about 2800 miles on it so far and is gonna run it to about 4000..i'm trying to talk him into doing a UOA...if he does i'll definately let you know how it turned out.

Mr Incredible

Thanks, Travis. I appreciate the thought.

I really was apprehensive while using this very thin oil. It goes against the entire orthodoxy of LS1 oil thinking. I was thrilled to get the results back and couldn't wait to post them. I would have posted them quickly even if they weren't so good, but I'm glad to see my hunch was correct.

The idea is that lubrication is a function of FLOW, not PRESSURE. Less viscosity means more flow. More pressure means less flow, as pressure means resistance to flow.

M1 TrSUV 5w-40 is a very thick oil, and startup flow suffers greatly. Since startup is where the bulk of wear takes place, it can only help to get flow going as quickly as possible. Granted, the miles were only half of the usual 4,000 mile test, but 1.5 ppm of iron per 1,000 miles is a very good number.

The only 30w oil with a lower viscosity is Castrol Syntec 5w-30, and I have to say the difference in the way the motor feels is very detectible. I like having a thinner oil in the sump. In fact, I put some Castrol Syntec 5w-30 in this fill to see what a different and supposedly better oil can do.

All in all, I'm not at all disappointed with how my LS1 did with a thin oil. I wonder if maybe this will help dispell some of the trash talk about thinner oils.

For more on the thinking behind my thin oil test, read THIS article.

capn smokey

iTrader: (1)

interesting.....

JEB Garner

Check out the 2000 Series Amsoil 0w-30. It has a wear scar of just 0.360. There is almost no oil that has a lower wear scar. Thick or thin. Of-course the AmsOil 0w-30 is a thin oil and with a wear scar of just 0.360 must make the 2000 Series Amsoil 0w-30 one of the the best oils that one can buy.

Mr Incredible

And what's your Amsoil dealer number, Jeb?

dailydriver

Yeah, that's the same resonse he would get over on BITOG (www.bobistheoilguy.com)!

Speaking of which, it looks like might be heading towards a thick vs. thin WAR on here, just like the ongoing one over there (I HOPE NOT!).
But regardless, those are some interesting/cool results you've had from the Havoline. It does NOT suprise me since it's ALWAYS been one of the BEST "off the shelf" dino oils (probably THE best, save for some of the hard to get Shaeffers stuff!), due to (among many other factors) it's high moly content. Although this has been reduced somewhat in the latest "Deposit Sheild" formulation, along with the phosphorus and zinc contents.

What prompted you to do the ARX runs on it (or is that just a "precautionary" thing??)? Which lab did your UOA?

Mr Incredible

I had no intention of stirring the fire in the Thick vs Thin war, but I get tired of all the "Use This" or "Use That" oil with absolutely no idea why. No tests, no numbers. No reasons other than it Feels Right. So, I stepped up, put of some money for a couple of tests, and tried the thinnest 30w's I can find. Real tests, real numbers, real results.

I get my tests done by Blackstone. They're quick and painless.

I did an ARX treatment on my F250 SD V10 earlier in the year. Under the valve cover was a deep, dark brown of deposits. I'd been using M1 TrSuv 5w-40 in a motor that just recently had the factory recommend MC 5w-20! I wanted to make the change to 5w-20 and did an ARX treatment to tidy things up beforehand. By the time I got done with the rinse on the V10 everything was like-new shiny! Wow, what a difference.

I did an ARX treatment on the LS1 for approximately the same reason. I'd been using M1 TrSuv 5w-40 in it, too. I'm disappointed, though, that under the valve cover it hasn't changed very much. I guess there isn't much splash. Still, I'm sure it's cleaner where it's important.

I could easily use HavDS for the forseeable future, but wanted to see what a 4k mi run of Castrol Syntec will do. It's a bit pricey, and if doesn't develop a halo around it I don't see switching to it for the long run.

Travis99LS1

iTrader: (2)

So if you dont stick with the syntec...which oil are you gonna stick with? Are you gonna go back to the M1 5w40? or stick with the havoline?

WE TODD DID

iTrader: (2)

So where in this study do you include scuffing and burning bearings?

Mr Incredible

I didn't include any because I don't have any. If I did it would show up as trace elements in the report. If it doesn't show up, do you have it?

Here are things to look for when reading a UOA report:







Chromium: Rings, a trace element in steel.
Iron: Cylinders, rotating shafts, the valve train, and any steel part sharing the oil.
Copper : Brass or bronze parts, copper bushings, bearings, oil coolers, also an additive in some gasoline engine oils.
Lead: Bearings.
Tin : Bearings, bronze parts, piston coatings.
Molybdenum: Anti-wear additive, coating on some new rings
(washes off as break-in occurs).
Nickel : Trace element in steel.
Manganese: Trace element, additive in gasoline.
Silver: Trace element.
Titanium: Trace element.
Potassium: Antifreeze inhibitor, additive in some oil types.
Boron: Detergent/dispersant additive, antifreeze inhibitors.
Silicon : Airborne dirt, sealers, gaskets, antifreeze inhibitors.
Sodium: Antifreeze inhibitors, additive in some gasoline engine oils.
Calcium : Detergent/dispersant additive.
Magnesium: Detergent/dispersant additive.
Phosphorus: Anti-wear additive.
Zinc : Anti-wear additive.
Barium: Detergent/dispersant additive.



In this last report, of the most likely bearing wear materials (aluminum,tin, and lead), aluminum was trending towards the universal average and tin/lead were nil. And since I did not baby the motor or the oil during the 2300 miles it was in use, and there were no metals out of line, I'm not concerned.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Mr Incredible,

Great post, good info (as usual).

Whether you realize this or not, you've also managed to disprove that ridiculous theory that was tossed around by a few members here that you can’t go back to a thinner oil once you’ve run a thicker oil without creating internal engine issues.

It seems clear to me that going from thick to thin and showing better wear numbers is proof enough to toss that “can’t go thick to thin” rumor right out the window.

Good job.

Mr Incredible

Dunno yet. I know I won't go back to anything 40w. I have some TrSUv to get rid of somewhere, but I don't know where. I have three cases of GC to use, and 4 cases of Pennzoil Platinum (mostly the older, real synthetic) in 5w & 10w-30. Some of it I can use in the daughter's car, but the Valvoline High Mileage has cured the leaks and I want to keep using it. The truck keeps 5w-20.

I suppose in a few years I could start back with the Havoline or something else. But, first I have to put 4k miles on the Syntec and see what comes out.

In the end, the only reason I'm doing this thin oil test is to further our knowledge of what oils work well in the LS1. Obviously, each stock motor is a little different, but not tremendously so. I did not think my engine would blow up and it didn't. No fried bearings. No thrown rods. I slap it around a little but I don't race, per se, so I don't need thicker insurance. My cooling system works just fine so I don't need a thicker oil to take up the slack.

I'm just fine without thick oil.

Mr Incredible

Thanks.

I figure it's worth a few bucks to add actual knowledge and experience rather than continuing to puke up the same old tired generalities and misconceptions.

JEB Garner

I don't have one. I just think that Amsoil is the best. That is why I buy it.

WE TODD DID

iTrader: (2)

You are absolutely incorrect. You can burn a bearing and not have any traces of metal. You might want to go a bit deeper into your study.

Mr Incredible

If you would be so kind, please explain the indications of said bearing burnings (short of teardown) and some of the situations where it would occur during normal or extreme operation.

dailydriver

Are you going to try the MC 5W-20 next? (a BITOG "thinnie" fave ) I forgot what the cSt is on this stuff, but it MUST be pretty stout the way it's holding up to the abuse being heaped on it in fleet useage.
Some actually claim that the thicker oils make their engine run hotter than the thin stuff!

Mr Incredible

I don't think I'll be going that far out on the limb. The idea is intriguing, though, just not with my car. I use in the truck, though.

Mr Incredible

WeToddId, Which of the following examples of bearing failures are you talking about (please see this page) ?

If you've had experience in this specific question - fried bearings that haven't shown up on oil analysis - there are many of us that would like to know more.

I am aware there are certain conditions that spall or break off portions of bearings/races that are too big to register in standard analysis and are too small to see with the naked eye, but getting a particle size/count done on your samples would go a long way to counter that problem. Also, checking your filter and magnetized drain plug go a long way towards discovering problems.

But, I would think if there were any problems whatsoever, the numbers (any of the numbers) would have given some indication by being a little less outstanding.

Since there were no particles of detectible size in the filter or abnormal particles in the drain plug, and the numbers were so low on a 2/3rds length run, I can only conclude that my motor is still happy.