The fix for my endless alternator failure's
07-02-2018, 10:45 AM
#1002
TECH Senior Member
Dang, Pooter! This thread just went past the 1K mark! Whoodathunkit??
07-02-2018, 10:50 AM
#1003
Appears as if a 2 pin alt like the AG244 out of the newer trucks like the 07 silverado defaults to 13.8v when it is used in our cars. Is there a way to re-wire these 2 pin AG244's to work with our cars or are we talking a rebuild and converting it to a 1 wire using a self exciting regulator so that it works a full capacity? I ask because finding a 4 pin AD244 at the yard with low miles isn't happening around these parts, but plenty of 2 pin from the newer trucks with low mileage. I think a 1 wire conversion is less than $30 from a good alt shop and while that will certainly charge the battery, I don't have the wiring schematic to know if it will cause any issues as far as how the alt communicates with the ECM.
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/alt-1.shtml
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/alt-1.shtml
Electrical Power Management (EPM) Overview
The electrical power management (EPM) system is designed to monitor and control the charging system and send diagnostic messages to alert the driver of possible problems with the battery and generator. This EPM system primarily utilizes existing on-board computer capability to maximize the effectiveness of the generator, to manage the load, improve battery state-of-charge and life, and minimize the system's impact on fuel economy. The EPM system performs 3 functions:
• It monitors the battery voltage and estimates the battery condition.
• It takes corrective actions by boosting idle speeds, and adjusting the regulated voltage.
• It performs diagnostics and driver notification.
The battery condition is estimated during ignition-off and during ignition-on. During ignition-off the state-of-charge (SOC) of the battery is determined by measuring the open-circuit voltage. The SOC is a function of the acid concentration and the internal resistance of the battery, and is estimated by reading the battery open circuit voltage when the battery has been at rest for several hours.
The SOC can be used as a diagnostic tool to tell the customer or the dealer the condition of the battery. Throughout ignition-on, the algorithm continuously estimates SOC based on adjusted net amp hours, battery capacity, initial SOC, and temperature.
While running, the battery degree of discharge is primarily determined by a battery current sensor, which is integrated to obtain net amp hours.
In addition, the EPM function is designed to perform regulated voltage control (RVC) to improve battery SOC, battery life, and fuel economy. This is accomplished by using knowledge of the battery SOC and temperature to set the charging voltage to an optimum battery voltage level for recharging without detriment to battery life.
The Charging System Description and Operation is divided into 3 sections. The first section describes the charging system components and their integration into the EPM. The second section describes charging system operation. The third section describes the instrument panel cluster (IPC) operation of the charge indicator, driver information center (DIC) messages, and voltmeter operation.
Charging System Components
Generator
The generator is a serviceable component. If there is a diagnosed failure of the generator it must be replaced as an assembly. The engine drive belt drives the generator. When the rotor is spun it induces an alternating current (AC) into the stator windings. The AC voltage is then sent through a series of diodes for rectification. The rectified voltage has been converted into a direct current (DC) for use by the vehicles electrical system to maintain electrical loads and the battery charge. The voltage regulator integral to the generator controls the output of the generator. It is not serviceable. The voltage regulator controls the amount of current provided to the rotor. If the generator has field control circuit failure, the generator defaults to an output voltage of 13.8 volts.
Body Control Module (BCM)
The body control module (BCM) is a GMLAN device. It communicates with the engine control module (ECM) and the instrument panel cluster (IPC) for electrical power management (EPM) operation. The BCM determines the output of the generator and sends the information to the ECM for control of the generator field control circuit. It monitors the generator field duty cycle signal circuit information sent from the ECM for control of the generator. It monitors a battery current sensor, the battery positive voltage circuit, and estimated battery temperature to determine battery state of charge (SOC). The BCM sends idle boost requests to the ECM.
Battery Current Sensor
The battery current sensor is a serviceable component that is connected to the negative battery cable at the battery. The battery current sensor is a 3-wire hall effect current sensor. The battery current sensor monitors the battery current. It directly inputs to the BCM. It creates a 5 volt pulse width modulation (PWM) signal of 128 Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100 percent. Normal duty cycle is between 5-95 percent. Between 0-5 percent and 95-100 percent are for diagnostic purposes.
Engine Control Module (ECM)
The ECM directly controls the generator field control circuit input to the generator. The ECM receives control decisions based on messages from the BCM. It monitors the generators generator field duty cycle signal circuit and sends the information to the BCM.
Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC)
The IPC provides a means of customer notification in case of a failure and a voltmeter. There are 2 means of notification, a charge indicator and the driver information center (DIC) SERVICE BATTERY CHARGING SYSTEM message.
Charging System Operation
The purpose of the charging system is to maintain the battery charge and vehicle loads. There are 6 modes of operation and they include:
• Battery Sulfation Mode
• Charge Mode
• Fuel Economy Mode
• Headlamp Mode
• Start Up Mode
• Voltage Reduction Mode
The engine control module (ECM) controls the generator through the generator turn on signal. It monitors the generator performance though the generator field duty cycle signal circuit. The signal is a 5 volt pulse width modulation (PWM) signal of 128 Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100 percent. Normal duty cycle is between 5-95 percent. Between 0-5 percent and 95-100 percent are for diagnostic purposes. The following table shows the commanded duty cycle and output voltage of the generator:
Commanded Duty Cycle Generator Output Voltage
10% 11 V
20% 11.56 V
30% 12.12 V
40% 12.68 V
50% 13.25 V
60% 13.81 V
70% 14.37 V
80% 14.94 V
90% 15.5 V
The generator provides a feedback signal of the generator voltage output through the generator field duty cycle signal circuit to the ECM. This information is sent to the body control module (BCM). The signal is a 5 volt PWM signal of 128 Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100 percent. Normal duty cycle is between 5-99 percent. Between 0-5 percent and 100 percent are for diagnostic purposes.
The alternator will work, but not to the full capacity that it should...hope this helps ya.
The electrical power management (EPM) system is designed to monitor and control the charging system and send diagnostic messages to alert the driver of possible problems with the battery and generator. This EPM system primarily utilizes existing on-board computer capability to maximize the effectiveness of the generator, to manage the load, improve battery state-of-charge and life, and minimize the system's impact on fuel economy. The EPM system performs 3 functions:
• It monitors the battery voltage and estimates the battery condition.
• It takes corrective actions by boosting idle speeds, and adjusting the regulated voltage.
• It performs diagnostics and driver notification.
The battery condition is estimated during ignition-off and during ignition-on. During ignition-off the state-of-charge (SOC) of the battery is determined by measuring the open-circuit voltage. The SOC is a function of the acid concentration and the internal resistance of the battery, and is estimated by reading the battery open circuit voltage when the battery has been at rest for several hours.
The SOC can be used as a diagnostic tool to tell the customer or the dealer the condition of the battery. Throughout ignition-on, the algorithm continuously estimates SOC based on adjusted net amp hours, battery capacity, initial SOC, and temperature.
While running, the battery degree of discharge is primarily determined by a battery current sensor, which is integrated to obtain net amp hours.
In addition, the EPM function is designed to perform regulated voltage control (RVC) to improve battery SOC, battery life, and fuel economy. This is accomplished by using knowledge of the battery SOC and temperature to set the charging voltage to an optimum battery voltage level for recharging without detriment to battery life.
The Charging System Description and Operation is divided into 3 sections. The first section describes the charging system components and their integration into the EPM. The second section describes charging system operation. The third section describes the instrument panel cluster (IPC) operation of the charge indicator, driver information center (DIC) messages, and voltmeter operation.
Charging System Components
Generator
The generator is a serviceable component. If there is a diagnosed failure of the generator it must be replaced as an assembly. The engine drive belt drives the generator. When the rotor is spun it induces an alternating current (AC) into the stator windings. The AC voltage is then sent through a series of diodes for rectification. The rectified voltage has been converted into a direct current (DC) for use by the vehicles electrical system to maintain electrical loads and the battery charge. The voltage regulator integral to the generator controls the output of the generator. It is not serviceable. The voltage regulator controls the amount of current provided to the rotor. If the generator has field control circuit failure, the generator defaults to an output voltage of 13.8 volts.
Body Control Module (BCM)
The body control module (BCM) is a GMLAN device. It communicates with the engine control module (ECM) and the instrument panel cluster (IPC) for electrical power management (EPM) operation. The BCM determines the output of the generator and sends the information to the ECM for control of the generator field control circuit. It monitors the generator field duty cycle signal circuit information sent from the ECM for control of the generator. It monitors a battery current sensor, the battery positive voltage circuit, and estimated battery temperature to determine battery state of charge (SOC). The BCM sends idle boost requests to the ECM.
Battery Current Sensor
The battery current sensor is a serviceable component that is connected to the negative battery cable at the battery. The battery current sensor is a 3-wire hall effect current sensor. The battery current sensor monitors the battery current. It directly inputs to the BCM. It creates a 5 volt pulse width modulation (PWM) signal of 128 Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100 percent. Normal duty cycle is between 5-95 percent. Between 0-5 percent and 95-100 percent are for diagnostic purposes.
Engine Control Module (ECM)
The ECM directly controls the generator field control circuit input to the generator. The ECM receives control decisions based on messages from the BCM. It monitors the generators generator field duty cycle signal circuit and sends the information to the BCM.
Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC)
The IPC provides a means of customer notification in case of a failure and a voltmeter. There are 2 means of notification, a charge indicator and the driver information center (DIC) SERVICE BATTERY CHARGING SYSTEM message.
Charging System Operation
The purpose of the charging system is to maintain the battery charge and vehicle loads. There are 6 modes of operation and they include:
• Battery Sulfation Mode
• Charge Mode
• Fuel Economy Mode
• Headlamp Mode
• Start Up Mode
• Voltage Reduction Mode
The engine control module (ECM) controls the generator through the generator turn on signal. It monitors the generator performance though the generator field duty cycle signal circuit. The signal is a 5 volt pulse width modulation (PWM) signal of 128 Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100 percent. Normal duty cycle is between 5-95 percent. Between 0-5 percent and 95-100 percent are for diagnostic purposes. The following table shows the commanded duty cycle and output voltage of the generator:
Commanded Duty Cycle Generator Output Voltage
10% 11 V
20% 11.56 V
30% 12.12 V
40% 12.68 V
50% 13.25 V
60% 13.81 V
70% 14.37 V
80% 14.94 V
90% 15.5 V
The generator provides a feedback signal of the generator voltage output through the generator field duty cycle signal circuit to the ECM. This information is sent to the body control module (BCM). The signal is a 5 volt PWM signal of 128 Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100 percent. Normal duty cycle is between 5-99 percent. Between 0-5 percent and 100 percent are for diagnostic purposes.
The alternator will work, but not to the full capacity that it should...hope this helps ya.
Last edited by 5.7stroker; 07-02-2018 at 11:00 AM.
07-02-2018, 11:42 AM
#1004
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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you can change the voltage regulator to a 4 pin but you would have to figure that out. been a few years since i looked into that when i added a ad244 to my old truck.
https://www.aspwholesale.com/voltage...-dr-p1492.html
https://www.aspwholesale.com/voltage...-dr-p1490.html
https://www.aspwholesale.com/voltage...-dr-p1492.html
https://www.aspwholesale.com/voltage...-dr-p1490.html
07-02-2018, 11:58 AM
#1005
If it's getting hard to find the old 4 pin style and you guys don't want to convert the 2 pin then just grab a new AC Delco unit. I would imagine those are just fine, when I had all my problems back 7 years ago I didn't have an AC Delco alternator available in a price I could afford, I believe they were $300-$400 for the F body fitment at the time and I couldn't risk spending that much on an alternator and burning it up so I went used to test my theory. And it just so happened that alternator never died so I left it.
I'm gonna put this in the first post too to help people that are still trying to do this conversion, Used 4 pins are gonna be pretty scarce before very much longer.
I'm gonna put this in the first post too to help people that are still trying to do this conversion, Used 4 pins are gonna be pretty scarce before very much longer.
07-02-2018, 12:01 PM
#1006
D200XHD would be the one to use. Seems pretty straight forward:
ACDELCO 3342529A {#88864285} remanufactured - $125.79 (4 pin)
ACDELCO 3351092 {#88877302} NEW - $158.79 (4 pin)
For only $33 more, might as well buy new AD244 instead of rebuilt AG244.
ACDELCO 3342529A {#88864285} remanufactured - $125.79 (4 pin)
ACDELCO 3351092 {#88877302} NEW - $158.79 (4 pin)
For only $33 more, might as well buy new AD244 instead of rebuilt AG244.
Last edited by 5.7stroker; 07-02-2018 at 12:15 PM.
07-14-2018, 08:58 PM
#1010
Stock length belt went on with new truck alt and was very tight, K060790. Squeaks loudly when I start it up, but only on initial start up.
I went up to the next size which is K060795. 0.6 inches longer. Does the same thing, squeaks loudly when I start it up, but only on initial start up.
Could be my starter as I replaced it with a SUM-829200
I went up to the next size which is K060795. 0.6 inches longer. Does the same thing, squeaks loudly when I start it up, but only on initial start up.
Could be my starter as I replaced it with a SUM-829200
Last edited by 5.7stroker; 07-14-2018 at 09:39 PM.
07-14-2018, 09:39 PM
#1011
TECH Senior Member
Is the tensioner in good shape?
07-14-2018, 09:57 PM
#1012
Car was fired with new alt and stock belt, and it didn't squeak. Then car sat 2 weeks, and I got my SUM-829200 starter installed. I'm using a 168 tooth B&M flexplate 20304.
I'm beginning to think it's not the belt but rather this new starter. I didn't inspect it to see if it had 11 teeth like it should. Time to pull it and inspect the flywheel teeth. I'm not shimming. **** is going right back to summit and an AC delco 5.3 truck starter going in if this starter is the problem lol.
I'm beginning to think it's not the belt but rather this new starter. I didn't inspect it to see if it had 11 teeth like it should. Time to pull it and inspect the flywheel teeth. I'm not shimming. **** is going right back to summit and an AC delco 5.3 truck starter going in if this starter is the problem lol.
07-16-2018, 10:25 AM
#1014
Car was fired with new alt and stock belt, and it didn't squeak. Then car sat 2 weeks, and I got my SUM-829200 starter installed. I'm using a 168 tooth B&M flexplate 20304.
I'm beginning to think it's not the belt but rather this new starter. I didn't inspect it to see if it had 11 teeth like it should. Time to pull it and inspect the flywheel teeth. I'm not shimming. **** is going right back to summit and an AC delco 5.3 truck starter going in if this starter is the problem lol.
I'm beginning to think it's not the belt but rather this new starter. I didn't inspect it to see if it had 11 teeth like it should. Time to pull it and inspect the flywheel teeth. I'm not shimming. **** is going right back to summit and an AC delco 5.3 truck starter going in if this starter is the problem lol.
07-16-2018, 11:43 AM
#1016
Yep that's exactly what I did and confirmed that it was the starter. It's already in route back to the supplier with a new starter on order. It was not disengaging from the flywheel quick enough. These starters are not designed to be shimmed and should work right out of the box when torqued properly to 37 ft/lbs. So far, no flywheel teeth look damaged.
07-16-2018, 12:53 PM
#1017
Yep that's exactly what I did and confirmed that it was the starter. It's already in route back to the supplier with a new starter on order. It was not disengaging from the flywheel quick enough. These starters are not designed to be shimmed and should work right out of the box when torqued properly to 37 ft/lbs. So far, no flywheel teeth look damaged.
07-16-2018, 12:57 PM
#1018
Yeah there's no reason your belt would squeal with the truck alternator that wasn't already there, the truck alternator tightens the belt a little when using the stock belt. I was super happy after doing the truck alternator, I did a buick high wall tensioner pulley around that same time and after doing that pulley and the truck alternator I stopped throwing the belt off between shifts and I didn't have to buy a fancy tensioner
07-16-2018, 01:16 PM
#1019
If you look up specs for AC Delco LS1 alternators and AC Delco 145 amp truck alternators, depending on which listing you pick, you'll see 2.2 and 2.3" diameters listed. They're probably all the same, why would they make two pulleys .1 inch different in diameter, it wouldn't make enough of a difference. Be like going from 4.10 gears to 4.11
All the 145 swaps I've done, the pulley on the truck alternator was the same size as the LS1 alternator pulley that came off the car.
I spun my truck alternator with the stock pulley on it up to 7000 rpm daily for a couple of years with no problems btw, and the guy that bought if from me did the same, and the guy that bought it from him until that guy totalled the car. There was a little over 30k miles on the alternator at that point and it never missed a beat.
Last edited by 00pooterSS; 07-16-2018 at 01:29 PM.
07-16-2018, 03:20 PM
#1020
I didn't think it mattered. I honestly didn't even bother to measure it compared to my stock one. Just put it on and was happy that the install went smooth. Thanks again for doing all the research on this. There's tons of parts out there for our cars but only a fraction of the total are actually worth a damn.