Will someone please let me know what the best shorties on the market are. I live in Cali and want to pass smog, legally. I know of JBA, Hooker and BBK. Are these my only options? Which is best. I have a 99, so my gain along with Random Tech Hi Flow cats and custom y pipe should be substantial. I know it's not LTs, but if you're praising LTs, please don't post in this thread.

 

Unfortunately only JBA's have a CARB # for 99's. However 98's can use hookers (who knows), and I wonder if a tech would be able to discriminate.

 

not sure if there all 1 3/4 primaried but i'd get which ever ones are and come out the cheapest. when it comes to shorties i cant see paying 500 bucks or so. the average tech aint gonna discriminate on shorties regardless of carb number or not, its when you go to a test only place where there **** about that ****. but with shorties and cats you should be good anywhere.

 

so you're saying if I have to go to a test only, I will need carb #s. How will I know if I have to go to a test only or not? Do I just wait to buy my headers until after my registation is due that way carb #s won't matter, but they will in 2 years I suppose.

 

when you get your registration and smog is due it will tell you if you've been chosen for a test only place. those are state run if i remember and they dont **** around. my old mazda b2200 got picked and it was no fun , took alot of work to get it to pass.

 

Put on JBA Cat4wards about 8 months ago. They're awesome. With their firecone design, IMO, they flow nearly as well as LT's. Of course, LT folks will find every arguement in the world to dispute this, BUT, with my Random Tech hi-flow catsand Borla adjustable, well, my 99 SCREAMS!!!!!!

Disadvantage: 2-3 RWHP loss at the upper powerband

Advantages: A little easier to install; average 4-5 pounds of torque at the low-end where it's needed most to help you launch and gain remarkable 0-60 times over the LT's. Our cars are heavy and this, IMO, is very important.

Since your thread clearly states, 'Only shorties folks welcome', then, LT folks should have the courtesy to not reply, HOWEVER, people will be people and SOMEONE with LT's will ring in. It's inevitable, dude.

Nice thread and I LOVE the tile. Good luck with your shorties. There are other good ones out there, however, I did like you are doing ... A LOT of research, looks at others' dyno numbers and these looked best to me. They worked well.

 

I'm not a fan of shorties nor have I installed any, BUT if someone held a gun to my head and forced me to buy a set I would definitely look into the BBKs just because of the 1-3/4" primaries. I believe the JBAs et al., are 1-5/8", which IMO is too small for even a stock LS1.

 

no offense but the only advantage to shorties is smog legalities and easy install. if they flow as well as LT's ask how many LT owners have switched to shorties. then ask how many shorty owners have switched to LT's or at least macs

 

I used to have the Hooker 1 5/8" shorties on my car and replaced them with the BBK 1 3/4". I haven't re-dynoed since (plan on doing so in next couple weeks) but there is a noticeable SOTP gain in the upper RPM's, no doubt due to the larger primaries. I may have lost a little on the bottom end, but it's meaningless as my cam is a stump-puller and I still have monster off-idle torque.

I like shorties for a few reasons. Number one is they are less noisy. On my setup I am not after the loud musclecar sound with that bell-like resonance from the exhaust. Second, no clearance issues. Third, emissions - I don't live in California but I want to be a good citizen and it is possible to get good performance while abiding by the spirit of the sniffer laws.

My goal is 400 rwhp. With the pulley and the new headers I think I will be close, even with my mild cam which I really like for idle and driveability reasons. For maximum strip performance LT's are the way to go, but they are not for everybody.

 

i wasn't going to reply but this information is just wrong.

longtubes make more low end torque due to their scavenging. now, with that said, i understand that there is a market for shorties and for some of you guys that is the better choice for whatever reason. i just can't stand to see blatently incorrect information posted as fact.

 

JEB99TA is not blatantly incorrect. Longtubes make more torque overall and at peak due to scavenging and the length of the primaries, but not on the low end, off-idle as compared to 1 5/8" shorties. Narrower primaries contribute at the bottom end by accellerating airflow at low engine speeds.

 

jrp ... I have followed your posts for a long time and have great respect for the wealth of knowledge that you have shared with us all. I have heeded nearly every reccommendation that you have given ... with a lot of success. My post stated that the shorties flows NEARLY as well as LT's not AS well. I further should have immediately stated '1-5/8" as compared to 1-34" primaries - as a ratio ... at the lower end'. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

KGSloan ... of course larger primaries flow more in volume. Please read above. I'll be more specific in future posts.


SSLink ... thanks for clarifyng what I failed to do. Dude, I was on my first cup of coffee ... not thinking too clearly.

All ... as stated in some other posts, your application really depends on your goal. Just be sure of your goals. For me, I want streetability... not a 10 second car, however, I've seen others with this same goal who spent a lot of money to build a drag strip racer because they had to change to LT's and the likes to achieve those sorts of speeds. Good luck with whatever decisions you make.

 

HAHA!

Shorties suck! Plain and simple.

I did a back to back test with JBA shorties on my heads/cam car when it had stock exaust manifolds still. BTW, it made around 370+ at the wheels with an LS1 intake and stock exaust manifolds a few years ago. What did I gain? Little to nothing. Not enough to measure on a dyno. As a matter of fact... the curve was almost exactly the same as the stock exaust manifolds. And this is on the more restrictive 98 style exaust manifolds, not the newer ones.

2-3rwhp off from a long tube header.... YEAH RIGHT! Try power pretty much all the way across the board... and alot more significant than 2-3 rwhp. I would guess more like 20rwhp up top and 15-20rwtq across the board with a decent long tube.

Another thing that should be taken into consideration is the fabrication of the primaries and collectors. If you look into the tubes on the header flange side and look into the collector on the muffler side, many times you will see ugly welds that can REALLY restrict flow. Sure your pipe may be 1 5/8 or 1 3/4.... but the welds restrict it down to 1 1/2 or even less. And if your collector is a smallish 2 1/2 rather than a nice 3" merge.... how in the world is it only gonna make a 2-3 rwhp (insignificant, unmeasurable difference)? The JBA's I tried looked like what I just described.

And who needs 4-5rwtq at the low-end (1500?). I've never seen anybody spend any amount of time at such low rpm's. Long tubes will destroy shorties even in the low-mid so really I see no advantage to shorties at all, except for ground clearance and installation ease.

I just don't want to see people buying shorties thinking they are even in the same class as long tubes and be disappointed with the results.

 

I don't like shorties...

 

Jantzer:

even some long tube and midlength headers can benefit from a little cleanup of the welds. This is not unique to shorties.

As to your question regarding who needs low end torque - I have stock gearing and spend a lot of time in stop and go traffic, and a lot of time cruising at 1500 RPM in 6th gear for economy (especially with gas prices at current levels) and quiet on the expressway. A lot of us don't just set our cars up for the quarter mile.

I am all about low end grunt and respectfully disagree that LT's will "destroy" shorties in the low RPM's. In the mid to upper range I concede they are better. Unfortunately dynos never measure what is going on below 2500 RPM or so and to some extent the butt-o-meter comes into play.

Your contention that shorty headers "suck" is predictable conventional wisdom on this board. No they are not in the same "class" or category as LT's, but they work nicely for some of us with different goals.

 

They don't work worth a sh*t! And long tubes are better for everyday drivers, 1/4 mile cars alike. They scavenge better and make more USEABLE torque, especially low-mid. Your assumption that shorties make good low-end is wrong.... shorties typically provide decent hp gains up top, but do not scavenge well (far from a tuned header) at low-mid rpms.

The long tubes will make the car quicker, provide better throttle response, and probaly be more fuel efficient. There is a reason 90% of the headers on the market are long tubes. And there is also a reason shorties are shorties.... smog and fitment. A manufacturer can design them to fit with the stock exaust system for a good selling point.

I just rememberd the true plus of the shorty, they're lighter than the cast iron manifolds.

 

I would honestly just as soon have stock manifolds than shorties. What little gain there *might* be wouldn't be worth the time, trouble, money and added valvetrain noise to me. This is just based on years of observing people's results on this board and others. That's JMO and I know you've stated that you don't want to hear it so I'll stop right there.

 

Shorties do fine on my car and I again disagree that a 1 3/4" or larger LT will outperform a 1 5/8" shorty on the low end. This is not an assumption. Primary diameter comes into play in header design just as length does and the smaller tubes will provide better low-end torque than the larger at very low engine speeds.

If you are comparing short and long tube headers of the same primary diameter, yes the LT's will scavenge better and the torque benefit will show up in the midrange. Shorty headers wth the same size primaries, collectors and plumbing behind them as LT's will theoretically outperform at higher RPM's, although I am unsure if this has been tested as yet on an LS1.

Most of the criticism of shorties on this and other forums has been that they do not provide the same peak horsepower gains as LT's. In this regard it is a little unfair to compare 1 5/8" headers with the stock Y and cats behind them to full, high-flow 1 3/4" or bigger LT setups. The newer 1 3/4" BBK shorties I have on my car now show SOTP top end improvement with my aftermarket Y-pipe but I have yet to dyno to compare.

Most headers are LT's because most people who buy them are into all-out performance on the strip or dyno. It does not logically follow that shorties aren't "worth a s..t." I am not contending that the 1 5/8" shorties on the market are a match for LT's in every regard, only that they work well for certain purposes, including boosting low-end torque , as well as the emissions, fitment and clearance issues you mention.

And lastly - Colonel, your opinions are always valued and welcome. I believe I have even seen you expound in the past that properly designed midlength and shorty headers can outperform LT's in certain racing applications. I wish this thread had been titled "Only those open-minded about shorties welcome."

 

[QUOTE=Jantzer98SS]They don't work worth a sh*t! And long tubes are better for everyday drivers, 1/4 mile cars alike. . . . .there is also a reason shorties are shorties.... smog and fitment. A manufacturer can design them to fit with the stock exaust system for a good selling point.
[\QUOTE]WHY are you jumping in on this discussion?
As JEB99TA pointed out: >>"Since {the} thread clearly states, 'Only shorties folks welcome', then, LT folks should have the courtesy to not reply."<<

Now 2ndGenWs6Owner has stated his reasons and let's respect that. PERIOD.


To 2ndGenWs6Owner: Put Edelbrock shorties on your list. Edelbrock headers are made of durable 16-gauge mild steel. Three finishes available: nickel/chromium, black paint or ceramic coating. 50-state street legal.

I had them on my '98 WS6 Formula, and was pleased with the quality. They did seriously improve the LT engine performance. Now, the LT is not the LS1. But quality does run throughout Edelbrock products.

Hope this Helps!

 

An awful lot of anger whenever the topic of "shorties" comes up...