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LS1Tech is the go to place for the best LS info out there. With so many enthusiast with the same types of cars, 4th gen f bodies in this case, the combined knowledge base is unmatched. What is also unmatched in the knowledge of what people WANT. A simple poll on here with all of the options would have given you the direction to go when designing something for these cars. The system you built would have had polled very low. Many guys are running 1-7/8 longtubes on stock motors now days. You know why? Because over 5 years ago Texas Speed proved that a 1-7/8 longtube made more power/tq across the entire rpm compared to a 1-3/4 longtube ON A STOCK MOTOR. Sure you will sell some of these and many of them will end up on ebay because its inherent that people always want more. And I agree with one of the earlier post about it being kinda weird by offering 1-7/8 header with a 2.5" exhaust.
LS1Tech is the go to place for the best LS info out there. With so many enthusiast with the same types of cars, 4th gen f bodies in this case, the combined knowledge base is unmatched. What is also unmatched in the knowledge of what people WANT. A simple poll on here with all of the options would have given you the direction to go when designing something for these cars. The system you built would have had polled very low. Many guys are running 1-7/8 longtubes on stock motors now days. You know why? Because over 5 years ago Texas Speed proved that a 1-7/8 longtube made more power/tq across the entire rpm compared to a 1-3/4 longtube ON A STOCK MOTOR. Sure you will sell some of these and many of them will end up on ebay because its inherent that people always want more. And I agree with one of the earlier post about it being kinda weird by offering 1-7/8 header with a 2.5" exhaust.
Thanks for providing your opinion, I value it as much as everyone else's here. Coupling a set of 1-7/8" header to a dual 2.5" inch exhaust system with an effective crossover is less strange than connecting 1-7/8" headers to one of the many Y-pipe/ single tailpipe/ single muffler systems that guys have been doing so with for years. There are cars out there making enough power to need a dual 3" system to see their full potential, but using one comes at the cost of increased noise, reduced ground clearance, the need to use additional aftermarket suspension components and the requirement to open your wallet wider than the typical 4th-gen owner cares to do. We are simply satisfying the needs of users with different needs and goals than someone such as yourself. The exhaust system itself is soon to be configured as a 50-state legal dual exhaust that connects to the stock cats for users subject to emissions testing. You may think that is also a wrong-headed decision because it's outside the scope of what you may want to do with your personal car, but I can guarantee there are other users who will receive that news with a great amount of enthusiasm. This is a great forum to gather information and data, but it represents only a slice of the total population of 4th-gen F-body owners, some of which spend zero time on enthusiast forums such as this. Fortunately, If these new components don't suit your needs there's plenty of alternative options available to you.
Last edited by user 4737373; 07-10-2015 at 07:57 AM.
I'm seriously considering this system for my z28 over the winter. I'll be using some 1 7/8 long tubes, but the cat back seems perfect for my needs.
Great, I'm glad to hear it. The benefits of the exhaust system are something you should be able to take advantage of relatively easy. There are quite a few long tubes out there that this system can be adapted to.
That is a pretty nice sounding system. I am one of those owners who has a roller, and will most likely be using either a 4.8, or 5.3 since they are so cheap.
That is a pretty nice sounding system. I am one of those owners who has a roller, and will most likely be using either a 4.8, or 5.3 since they are so cheap.
That's a good way to go for the reason you stated. You can also get the headers with 1-3/4" primaries if you go with one of those engines and don't plan too many engine mods in the future.
I'm considering this, though I still want to go with a set of LTs... One other thing that concerned me... the 475hp rating you gave this, was that fwhp or rwhp?
I can definitely say if you developed a 3" system or a system that connected to LTs, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Also, would it be possible to get a clip of what it's like to drive inside the car? You've talked about the 'annoying' interior noise, but I'd like to know what I'm going to hear when I drive the car.
I'm considering this, though I still want to go with a set of LTs... One other thing that concerned me... the 475hp rating you gave this, was that fwhp or rwhp?
I can definitely say if you developed a 3" system or a system that connected to LTs, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Also, would it be possible to get a clip of what it's like to drive inside the car? You've talked about the 'annoying' interior noise, but I'd like to know what I'm going to hear when I drive the car.
Adapting the exhaust system to work with any set of long-tubes is easy work for anybody with the skill set required to do it. The rating would be fwhp, so that should help you in your decision making. We would have been al over the development of a 3" system, but the fitment constraints imposed by the car itself meant we would have ended up with a lower hanging, ultra-expensive set-up just like the Kooks system...there's not enough room in the market for two such offerings. We won't be developing a 3" system unless we can figure a way to execute it
that yields better fitment/ packaging results. I do have an interior drive video and I will post it up for you on Monday.
Adapting the exhaust system to work with any set of long-tubes is easy work for anybody with the skill set required to do it. The rating would be fwhp, so that should help you in your decision making. We would have been al over the development of a 3" system, but the fitment constraints imposed by the car itself meant we would have ended up with a lower hanging, ultra-expensive set-up just like the Kooks system...there's not enough room in the market for two such offerings. We won't be developing a 3" system unless we can figure a way to execute it
that yields better fitment/ packaging results. I do have an interior drive video and I will post it up for you on Monday.
Here's a question from a newb: why not a 2.75? Is the tubing not standard?
Here's a question from a newb: why not a 2.75? Is the tubing not standard?
It's absolutely available, but you have to buy a large quantity of it to get a reasonable price on it just like when you purchase any size tubing. If we went with that size on this application it would be the only one we would have in our line that used that size, so the usage volume would therefore be too low to get it at a reasonable cost. The other issue against using it would be perception in the market that 3" would be better and if maximum mass flow is what you need, reality would agree with that perception.
It's a shame that the users on this and other various LS/F-body forums weren't polled before it was released. If it was ground clearance with a 3" pipe you were really concerned with, why not use oval piping? It's what they did from the factory and that tucked up pretty well.
I've never ordered bulk piping, so I've no idea the discounts provided (though I can guess at anywhere from 15-40%). Also, from some of my searches online (and note that these are at consumer prices) it seems that oval piping and regular 3" stainless piping are relatively close in price (in fact, the oval piping I found was cheaper than the round piping). But not all places/metals are equal, so we'll figure about a 10 cent-per-inch difference, favoring the round.
If you factor that into your listed price, it puts you at around 990-1190. That's the same as Bassani's, and even on the expensive side waaaaay cheaper than Kooks. But you're at 3" piping, and instead of mids, could have developed a good set of LTs to go with it. At that point your header sales would go up, and the sales of the exhaust would go up even more, since people would be more willing to buy it without having to get it fabbed to fit. I'd bet my left leg that would have sold like crazy. I know I would've bought it.
I understand what you were trying to do, and I can certainly appreciate it, but I think the development team was so focused on the goal of making a nice, tucked exhaust that they forgot the whole reason people would spend $1500 (which is still a pretty penny, btw) on True Dual setup on their car in the first place. If it was just a nice sound they wanted, they'd go buy a catback for 1/3rd the price.
It's a shame that the users on this and other various LS/F-body forums weren't polled before it was released. If it was ground clearance with a 3" pipe you were really concerned with, why not use oval piping? It's what they did from the factory and that tucked up pretty well.
I've never ordered bulk piping, so I've no idea the discounts provided (though I can guess at anywhere from 15-40%). Also, from some of my searches online (and note that these are at consumer prices) it seems that oval piping and regular 3" stainless piping are relatively close in price (in fact, the oval piping I found was cheaper than the round piping). But not all places/metals are equal, so we'll figure about a 10 cent-per-inch difference, favoring the round.
If you factor that into your listed price, it puts you at around 990-1190. That's the same as Bassani's, and even on the expensive side waaaaay cheaper than Kooks. But you're at 3" piping, and instead of mids, could have developed a good set of LTs to go with it. At that point your header sales would go up, and the sales of the exhaust would go up even more, since people would be more willing to buy it without having to get it fabbed to fit. I'd bet my left leg that would have sold like crazy. I know I would've bought it.
I understand what you were trying to do, and I can certainly appreciate it, but I think the development team was so focused on the goal of making a nice, tucked exhaust that they forgot the whole reason people would spend $1500 (which is still a pretty penny, btw) on True Dual setup on their car in the first place. If it was just a nice sound they wanted, they'd go buy a catback for 1/3rd the price.
It's a shame that the users on this and other various LS/F-body forums weren't polled before it was released. If it was ground clearance with a 3" pipe you were really concerned with, why not use oval piping? It's what they did from the factory and that tucked up pretty well.
I've never ordered bulk piping, so I've no idea the discounts provided (though I can guess at anywhere from 15-40%). Also, from some of my searches online (and note that these are at consumer prices) it seems that oval piping and regular 3" stainless piping are relatively close in price (in fact, the oval piping I found was cheaper than the round piping). But not all places/metals are equal, so we'll figure about a 10 cent-per-inch difference, favoring the round.
If you factor that into your listed price, it puts you at around 990-1190. That's the same as Bassani's, and even on the expensive side waaaaay cheaper than Kooks. But you're at 3" piping, and instead of mids, could have developed a good set of LTs to go with it. At that point your header sales would go up, and the sales of the exhaust would go up even more, since people would be more willing to buy it without having to get it fabbed to fit. I'd bet my left leg that would have sold like crazy. I know I would've bought it.
I understand what you were trying to do, and I can certainly appreciate it, but I think the development team was so focused on the goal of making a nice, tucked exhaust that they forgot the whole reason people would spend $1500 (which is still a pretty penny, btw) on True Dual setup on their car in the first place. If it was just a nice sound they wanted, they'd go buy a catback for 1/3rd the price.
That's my opinion, anyway.
(Sorry for the long post)
Thanks for your opinion. No polling was needed as we were/are fully aware that some users in the market do need/want to use a 3" system and it was our intention to develop such a system until the fitment limitations of the vehicle were exposed during the preliminary vehicle inspection.
The only way to achieve good fitment/ground clearance of a dual 3" system on a 4th-gen F-body is to reconfigure various suspension components on the car to provide more room for routing the tubes, or to run the tubes under the rear axle. Neither of these options was acceptable to us and the choice was made to not compete within that space in the market at this point in time.
If a desired product/system can't be executed to the quality and fitment standards we're designing all our new Blackheart products to, we disengage from the effort and move on to the development of other projects we have on our schedule. We may figure out a way to build a dual 3" system that meets our standards in the future and will be happy to bring it to the market if and when we do.
There are two reasons the use of ovalized tubing cannot be used not solve the fitment problems associated with this application, one is the limited width between torque arm and the tunnel sheet metal does not allow enough width to route it (you can't even get two round 3" tubes in there unless you drop them down and sacrifice ground clearance as Kooks has done with their system) and the second is you can't bend ovalized tubing on multiple planes as you can round tubing; you can only bend it on a single plane either the "easy" way or the "hard" way.
If you want to use it then you have to fabricate and weld the transitions needed to get it around all the obstacles present and that translates to a high build cost. GM didn't use ovalized tubing in the construction of the stock exhaust systems on these cars, they hydro-formed the stock Y-pipe leg on the driver side into an organic ovalized shape that included the transitions to the two different shapes needed at either end.
Hydro-forming tooling is very expensive and cannot be cost-effectively implemented for use with the low usage volumes represented by the performance aftermarket.
No polling was needed as we were/are fully aware that some users in the market do need/want to use a 3" system
I disagree with this. While I like the idea of this system and I'm still considering it, I think the extremely mixed response you're getting speaks volumes about the necessity of talking to your consumers.
Originally Posted by toddoky
There are two reasons the use of ovalized tubing cannot be used not solve the fitment problems associated with this application, one is the limited width between torque arm and the tunnel sheet metal does not allow enough width to route it
Wasn't there a guy who made a TD exhaust using oval tubing that, (with the exception of his cats) sat above the frame?
Originally Posted by toddoky
the second is you can't bend ovalized tubing on multiple planes as you can round tubing; you can only bend it on a single plane either the "easy" way or the "hard" way.
This I can agree with. Round tubing is hard enough to bend, I can't imagine ovalized is any better. Though I do know some places sell pre-bent pieces. I mean, would it be possible to use stuff like that to make the exhaust? (just a thought)
Also, Toddoky, the fwhp number you gave me seems rather conservative. 5th gen's come with 2.5" exhaust and they're at 430fwhp. From talking with some of the guys at Camaro5, it's only till you get to about the 600fwhp mark that you really start seeing restrictions.
I disagree with this. While I like the idea of this system and I'm still considering it, I think the extremely mixed response you're getting speaks volumes about the necessity of talking to your consumers.
Wasn't there a guy who made a TD exhaust using oval tubing that, (with the exception of his cats) sat above the frame?
This I can agree with. Round tubing is hard enough to bend, I can't imagine ovalized is any better. Though I do know some places sell pre-bent pieces. I mean, would it be possible to use stuff like that to make the exhaust? (just a thought)
Also, Toddoky, the fwhp number you gave me seems rather conservative. 5th gen's come with 2.5" exhaust and they're at 430fwhp. From talking with some of the guys at Camaro5, it's only till you get to about the 600fwhp mark that you really start seeing restrictions.
Hey alfablue. We do talk to our customers all the time, which is why it was our initial intention to develop a dual 3" system for this application as I've noted. The architecture of the car itself and the cost of a remedy for the shortcomings that would allow development of a dual 3" system with optimized fitment is what led to our decision to not pursue it during the development of this project.
The decision had nothing to do with not listening to the voice of the customer...it simply could not be done without ending up with a me-too product that possessed the same compromises and high-price as the existing dual 3" system on the market.
If users are willing to accept those compromises then a system is there for the taking that has them, including long-tube headers that fit directly to it,so there's no point in producing another like it.
Yes, there have been individuals who have fabricated custom exhaust systems out of ovalized tubing with good results, but nothing that can be replicated in a production context. As I said, you cannot bend ovalized tubing in any form other than on a single plane, which is why you don't see ovalized tubing sold in any form other than pre-bent single bends.
You also cannot see in photos/theads of such custom systems whether or not there is sufficient clearance for the exhaust tubing to clear the driveshaft at full suspension droop, which is a requirement for a system that comes from us.
The fwhp rating we quote is intentionally conservative...would could say the system would support 1200HP, but that wouldn't really be of a benefit to someone considering the system.
If yourself or anyone else reading this thread truly wants or needs to run a dual 3" system on their 4th-gen, I'm not here trying to tell you that this system will provide the same ultimate performance potential as such a system and that you should buy this system instead. This system is targeted towards users who don't need the flow potential of a dual 3" system, cannot justify the cost of the Kooks system or that want something that performs and sounds better than the vast majority of common Y-pipe/single tailpipe systems on the market.
Those living in states that require emissions testing/compliance will also soon have access to a 50-state legal version of this exhaust system to install on their cars; the volume of those applications alone justify our efforts in developing/offering the system in it's current 2.5" configuration.
There are many users of the Bassani 2.5" true-dual system as well, so this system is no more or less viable than that system...it works great for some and is not even worth considering for others.
Last edited by user 4737373; 07-12-2015 at 02:48 PM.
New Hooker 4th-gen F-body Headers and Exhaust Coming Soon
Originally Posted by Toddoky
Great, I'm glad to hear it. The benefits of the exhaust system are something you should be able to take advantage of relatively easy. There are quite a few long tubes out there that this system can be adapted to.
Anything can be adapted with a welder and some pipe
It does seem as though it would be advantageous to eventually come out with a larger setup for the big power guys, but honestly I see this setup selling as a whole very well. How many people have just intake and cat back car? A lot more than you'd imagine. Throw an affordable header/dual exhaust setup out there that has as good as stock clearance, supports more horse power than all the bolt on guys make and sounds good (its a dual setup so I'm sure it sounds good) and I'm sure it will sell just as good as any other 3in cat back out there.
I have a 3in Borla adjustable. Thing cost over a grand, for a small amount more I could have headers, better sound, and clearance that's just as good, and a cat back that supports more power. It seems logical to me.
As requested earlier, here's a sound clip of the interior taken during a test drive...I had the GoPro attached upside-down to the windshield, which explains the inverted nature of the video.
Guys, I just want to reiterate these dyno numbers. The average across 6 pulls were peak numbers of 333.79 horsepower and 348.51 lb/ft of torque. This was on my friend's 114,000 mile 2001 Formula. The only other modification was an open K&N filter. For a car that made probably 300-310 rwhp stock, I was very impressed with the results. For lightly modded cars such as this one, I think you'd be extremely hard-pressed to achieve better results with longtubes and a 3" exhaust. And even if it did make 2 more horsepower (which I really doubt), would it be worth sacrificing the ground clearance and having to buy a panhard relocation bar?
07-07-2015, 02:24 PM
I totally agree 
