These are pics of the leading Long tube header designs for LS1 F-bods. What do you think? Grotyohann, FLP, and TTS are considerd to be some of the best LT header designs for your F-Bod. Why? There has to be a reason one makes more power than the other.

SLP
<img src="http://www.ls1motorsports.com/images/30051.jpg" alt=" - " />

Hooker
<img src="http://www.thunderracing.com/images/2253hooker.jpg" alt=" - " />

TTS
<img src="http://www.ls1motorsports.com/images/ttslongtubes.jpg" alt=" - " />

FLP
<img src="http://www.thunderracing.com/images/flp3.jpg" alt=" - " />

Grotyohann
<img src="http://www.rumour.com/car/motor/passhead2.jpg" alt=" - " />

What do ya think?

 

???Is straighter, better???

 

Had I wanted a LT I would have gone with TTS. If I ever move up to an LT I will most likely get TTS.

I was looking for midlenghts though, so I picked Bassani. I feel they flow as well as Macs from the dynos I've seen. I think the quality of Bassani is much greater than Macs though. Also Bassanis don't rasp nearly as much as Macs do with an ORY.

 

Most of the headers with bent tubes are what the call equal length tubes.This supposedly helps the engine run better do to cylinder scavenging.This really over simplifies it , but I hope it helps.By the way I have the Hooker LT and my car rips.

 

BAD02WS6, see my response in the post titled "no gains with SLP LT's".

Straighter doesn't seem to make a difference with these cars.

 

here is a pic of the SLP kit..

http://www.ls1info.com/modules.php?o...ery&file=index

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TrahnZam WS6:
<strong>Grotyohanns are the best hands down. Alot more than just pipe straightness dictates performance of a header design.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree. Absolutely nothing out there proves that they are the best. It is merely opinion on your part.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TrahnZam WS6:
<strong>Grotyohanns are the best hands down. Alot more than just pipe straightness dictates performance of a header design.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree. Absolutely nothing out there proves that they are the best. It is merely opinion on your part.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The two most powerful cam only cars both used them, and the two fastest bolton cars ever (121 mph) also uses grots. That is some proof that the headers work well.

 

NoGo.
I agree with you on the "Pulsation Management". The length of each header is calculated to maximize exhaust scavenging. Tuned tube lengths utilize exhaust pulses to create a vacuum in the collector. The vacuum pulls exhaust gases out of the cylinder making more room for a fresh air/fuel charge. I also understand the relation ship between velocity and tube diameter.

NoGo> quote:
"If you stand two very good flowing headers side by side, the one with the best exhaust pulsation management will absolutely crush the competition. No matter how straight the other one is."

That?s not totally true.

Stand two header side by side that both have good Pulsation management, the one with the best flow will win. Now matter how calculated the pulse is.

Take a look at the SLPs. Imagine the same header design, same length, same pulse management, but on one header. The tubes are mandrel bent. The other header has tubes with kinks in the bends. Of course the kinked header with bad bends and turn will be at a disadvantage.

What about comparing a header that has pulsation management with bad bends, against a header that has smooth strait bends but no pulsation management?
Will the calculated exhaust pulse make up for the power lost in the bad bends bends? If the velocity is lost in the tubes before it gets to the collector, then your exhaust pulse is going to be week. It's going to be more like exhaust poof than pulse.

The length of the primary tube is what tunes the exhaust pulse. Not the shape. You can still have a tuned exhaust without all of curvy crap. The curves slow the velocity down.

I know that a header would not have kinked bends, but my point is. I don't think there is one determining factor on how to make a powerful header. But this is for sure. Every factor must be determined together. Tube size, tube length, diameter, straightness, exhaust pulse, and lots more.

Any header design that doesn't use all of the factors is going to be at a disadvantage.

Grotyhanns are my choice

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The two most powerful cam only cars both used them, and the two fastest bolton cars ever (121 mph) also uses grots. That is some proof that the headers work well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Where are the bad *** cars with SLPs........ HHMMMMM......... UUUHHH.... No where!!

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TrahnZam WS6:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TrahnZam WS6:
<strong>Grotyohanns are the best hands down. Alot more than just pipe straightness dictates performance of a header design.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree. Absolutely nothing out there proves that they are the best. It is merely opinion on your part.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The two most powerful cam only cars both used them, and the two fastest bolton cars ever (121 mph) also uses grots. That is some proof that the headers work well.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Every car and every setup is slightly different. Who’s to say those cars would not have run as fast or faster with say TTSs? Or Hookers?

Also, who’s to say that those are really the fastest? Not every cammed LS1 is on the net. I know of some pretty quick LS1s that have nothing to do with any of the internet boards.

Unless different headers were tested on the same car you can’t really make a 100% accurate claim.

I still do not agree that Grots are the all arond best. I never will. There have been some extremely fast LS1s with headers besides Grots.

 

Also, we had a club car make no other change other than adding SLP LTs with ORPs. He went from low 105 traps to high 110 traps. Similar weather, no other changes, and he ran the 110 times on more than one pass that day (actually all three passes). So I could say that he picked up almost 6mph of trap speed, but who’s to say that the next car will?

Near 6mph of trap speed is a huge gain. It was a bolt-on car with stock internals. Does this mean that SLPs are the best? Not too many people pick up that much, but he did.

I wouldn’t pick SLPs personally for a few reasons, but I also wouldn’t pick Grots as the best either.

 

Bad02WS6

Understandably, kinked headers are going to suck, you won't find a disagreement there.

For the purpose of this argument we are talking about to similarly manufactered headers. Same material, smooth bends.... etc.

I believe pulsation management takes precedence over keeping headers strait to improve flow. Just look at the headers that are used for the WRC cars. Their headers look more like a snail shell than a set of headers. They are lengthening their headers, not really giving a crap on how straight they are, in order to achieve a 'tuned' exhaust. So again, I doubt the straitest headers are the best.

 

"Where are the bad *** cars with SLPs........ HHMMMMM......... UUUHHH.... No where!!"

BAD02WS6 - what's your definition?? I ran an 11.14 @ 123+ with the SLP's last year and it had more in it (tranny had probs).

 

Exhaust pulse manegment is a huge factor. But does it takes precedence over tube flow? Not sure. I agree with you on most parts. What you see above are your major choices for LTs. All of these headers have a some exhaust pulse tuning. not all are as strait as others.

You said it yourself.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> giving your gasses a straight shot verses rather than all over the place is going to allow for more predictable/better gas flow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">YES. The straighter tube will produce a more prodictable and consistant velocity. Which in turn creates a more predictable and consistant exhaust pulse. That will creat a more consitant and powerfull exhaust flow.

If you have have more bends in your pipe. You have more of a possability of a turbulant and speratic exhuast flow. That means a inconsistancy in flow. which creates a inconsistant exhast pulse. So now you exhaust pulse tunning has gone to **** becasue your pulse is inconsistant. all because of the primary tubes looking like a mountain road.

The WRC cars have snail lookin headers because of space/room. Not because they want twisty headers.

 

Did you see the quote.

Quote: The two most powerful cam only cars both used them, and the two fastest bolton cars ever (121 mph) also uses grots. That is some proof that the headers work well.

Where are the bad *** cars with SLPs........ HHMMMMM......... UUUHHH.... No where!!

Do you have a cam only car? or A bolt on car that runs 120s?

 

Oh the last one was for you ONYXSS.

 

My sig shows me as a H/C. Last year I was 4th or 5th on this board for a NA 346 with the SLP's. If you'd factor in raceweight at the time, it'd be even more impressive.

If that's not good enough for you, sorry.

Plain and simple from someone who's had both the straight and the "not so straight" headers. The SLP's make just as much power.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Bad02WS6:
<strong>
The WRC cars have snail lookin headers because of space/room. Not because they want twisty headers.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My point is not that they want twisty headers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . What they want, and all race cars for that matter, are a properly tuned set of headers. The twistes are there because they don't have enough room to obtain the proper length header so as to maximize the use of their exhaust pulsations. You need a certain length to take advantage of the exhaust pulsations.... ie why shorties suck.

If what your saying was true, that the straiter the header the better the output, then we would never see anything such as equal length headers, which utilize strange bends and twists so as to achieve a proper pulsation length. If I had a choice between a set of custom made equal length headers (the kind that look like a snail shell from all of the strange bends and twists), verses your Grots, I guarantee that my twisty, odd, not strait headers, would crush the Grots, or FLPs because they would be a "more properly" tuned header. Unfortunately, I don't have 4k to blow on headers.

I am not argueing that a curved header will flow SLIGHTLY less than a strait header. <img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" /> That is a gimme. Pulsation management (ie header length) takes presedence over how strait the header is, unlike what you were implying above.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The WRC cars have snail lookin headers because of space/room. Not because they want twisty headers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you not understand my post?

NoGo </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> My point is not that they want twisty headers. What they want, and all racecars for that matter, are a properly tuned set of headers. The twists are there because they don't have enough room to obtain the proper length header so as to maximize the use of their exhaust pulsations. You need a certain length to take advantage of the exhaust pulsations </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow. Your good. You can repeat what I say in greater detail.
Of course twisty TUNED crap is better than shorties.

I think your getting Tuned headers and Equal length headers confused. Tuned headers do not have equal lengths lubes. The tuning comes into play with the tubes being cut at slightly different lengths. They are slightly different length for different cylinders. The cylinders fire at different times. The different length tube merges the exhaust gas so that the exhaust from the front right piston hits the collector in sink with all other right pistons exhaust. Do you got that NoGo.......I'm trying to go slow for ya.

NoGo </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> If what your saying was true, that the straighter the header the better the output, then we would never see anything such as equal length headers, which utilize strange bends and twists so as to achieve a proper pulsation length. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There you go confusing equal length headers with tuned headers again. Equal length headers DO NOT utilize strange bends and twist to achieve a proper pulsation. Those are TUNNED headers. And just to make it extra clear. Tuned headers don't have to be bendy and twisty.

Ok MR. NoGo
If the curvy crap is better. Then Why don't Top Fuel dragsters use your CURVY HEADER THEORY?

The Headers are as strait as they can make them. And Guess what??? WOW!!!! Those really strait top fuel headers are tuned!!!! What do ya know? I wonder why they don't make them curvy? Har har har!

You actually sounded intelligent about the subject until you started to explain yourself.

Hmmmmm just out of curiosity. Why is your name NoGo?