True Duals Cost POWER!?!?!??
02-29-2008, 04:24 PM
#82
A Y-merge CANNOT outscavenge an X-merge. It's a DESIGN FLAW. It doesn't matter how nice the bends in the pipes are. It doesn't matter what mufflers you use. Cutout placement won't matter. Quality of the pipe will not matter. The Y-merge ITSELF is the bottleneck here. This is why a Y-pipe setup can NEVER achieve what TD's can in the equal case.
All I have to do is take an extreme example from 1 end and an extreme example from the other end, propose the arguement, and you're statement is wrong.
Last edited by Asmodeus; 02-29-2008 at 04:35 PM.
02-29-2008, 05:04 PM
#84
Tech Resident
Wow. Glad to see you've missed every post I've made this entire thread. You didn't even read my last one it seems. If you did, it went over your head
02-29-2008, 05:06 PM
#85
Tech Resident
I guess all I can say to you is "stay in school". A 90 degree X with 3inch pipes is not going to outflow a dual 3inch inlet parallel merge Y with a 4 inch outlet.
No, we're talking about every setup, because you said "in all cases". Here.. to refresh your memory..
All I have to do is take an extreme example from 1 end and an extreme example from the other end, propose the arguement, and you're statement is wrong.
No, we're talking about every setup, because you said "in all cases". Here.. to refresh your memory..
All I have to do is take an extreme example from 1 end and an extreme example from the other end, propose the arguement, and you're statement is wrong.
Again, a Y-pipe setup CANNOT outperform the equal X-pipe setup. The limit is the merge.
02-29-2008, 05:07 PM
#86
Tech Resident
02-29-2008, 05:17 PM
#88
Tech Resident
Ummmmm, don't think so. Simple fluid dynamics will tell you that splitting a pipe after the merge as an x-pipe does will cause turbulance...hence reduced flow. Couple that with the crappy crossover that most people use around here will just exacerbate the problem. Try again.
To even suggest that you know more that PatrickG is just plain ludicrous. Add a 150 shot to your car and you still won't have the RWHP he is putting out. I would put my money on his is more streetable also. Hell, PatrickG has **** turds with more automotive knowledge than you.
Have a nice day.
Galen
Have a nice day.
Galen
Gave a nice day.
There's a lot of people out there with fast cars that don't know anything about them. They're called rich people
Having a fast car doesn't make you a genius. PatrickG obviously knows what he's talking about, but he should agree that putting an equally well-made X-pipe setup on his car would increase overall output. He just probably doesn't want to do it because of ground clearance and fitment issues.
02-29-2008, 05:51 PM
#91
So, by your logic, crossovers don't work since all they do is cause turbulence? You know what causes a lot of turbulence? Taking two pipes and smashing them together at 120* angles and jamming the flow into one straight pipe. It's called a y-merge, and the turbulence is why y-pipe setups tend to be a lot raspier than X-pipe setups.
To even suggest that because one guy on all of tech has a really nice y-pipe setup negates the entire sport of racing is the only thing that's plain ludicrous. If PatrickG cut his y-pipe setup off and put on an equally well-made X-pipe setup, he WOULD gain power. If you understood fluid dynamics and understood the superiority of the X-merge vs. the y-merge, you'd agree with me
Gave a nice day.
There's a lot of people out there with fast cars that don't know anything about them. They're called rich people Having a fast car doesn't make you a genius. PatrickG obviously knows what he's talking about, but he should agree that putting an equally well-made X-pipe setup on his car would increase overall output. He just probably doesn't want to do it because of ground clearance and fitment issues.
To even suggest that because one guy on all of tech has a really nice y-pipe setup negates the entire sport of racing is the only thing that's plain ludicrous. If PatrickG cut his y-pipe setup off and put on an equally well-made X-pipe setup, he WOULD gain power. If you understood fluid dynamics and understood the superiority of the X-merge vs. the y-merge, you'd agree with me
Gave a nice day.
There's a lot of people out there with fast cars that don't know anything about them. They're called rich people
Having a fast car doesn't make you a genius. PatrickG obviously knows what he's talking about, but he should agree that putting an equally well-made X-pipe setup on his car would increase overall output. He just probably doesn't want to do it because of ground clearance and fitment issues.Now, about fluid dynamics...and yes, any gas is considered a fluid and behaves as such. Please explain the logic behind having two pipes going into a single pipe using equally designed merges and then deciding to split them into two pipes again and not disrupt flow. This is exactly what an x-pipe does. Also, the area of the pipe does not dictate flow, as the boundary layer along the walls of the tube generally disrupt flow. Hence, a single pipe will flow more per square inch than two pipes with the half the area each.
The reality is, PatrickG has the money and resources to use the best system he could get. If you read his build, he cut absolutely no corners to reach his goal. He put more research and thought into his exhaust system than just about anyone on this forum. To make a blanket statement about how he could gain power is arrogant at best. By the way, that test is with his cutout open. If I remember right, he lost 7 or so horsepower going through the 3 inch SLP dual/dual muffler. No, I didn't go back to read the post to find out precisely.
Oh yea, my system is a homemade y-pipe going into a 2x3inch Flowmaster merge to one 3.5 inch pipe to a 3.5 inch QTP electric cutout to a 3.5 inch to 3 inch Flowmaster reducer into a Hooker catback. It is tame when I want it to be and I have maximum flow at the flip of a switch. While not as nice as PatrickG's, I feel it will hang with any true dual system out there and is very streetable.
Once again, have a nice day!
Galen
Last edited by Galen; 02-29-2008 at 06:08 PM.
02-29-2008, 05:55 PM
#92
Yes, in every case where conditions are equal. You KNOW I meant that. You KNOW it was implied. You're just so desperate to take back what you said because you know you're wrong, you're trying to twist my words and make it sound like I said something I didn't.
Again, a Y-pipe setup CANNOT outperform the equal X-pipe setup. The limit is the merge.
Again, a Y-pipe setup CANNOT outperform the equal X-pipe setup. The limit is the merge.
02-29-2008, 05:56 PM
#93
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So, by your logic, crossovers don't work since all they do is cause turbulence? You know what causes a lot of turbulence? Taking two pipes and smashing them together at 120* angles and jamming the flow into one straight pipe. It's called a y-merge, and the turbulence is why y-pipe setups tend to be a lot raspier than X-pipe setups.
To even suggest that because one guy on all of tech has a really nice y-pipe setup negates the entire sport of racing is the only thing that's plain ludicrous. If PatrickG cut his y-pipe setup off and put on an equally well-made X-pipe setup, he WOULD gain power. If you understood fluid dynamics and understood the superiority of the X-merge vs. the y-merge, you'd agree with me
Gave a nice day.
There's a lot of people out there with fast cars that don't know anything about them. They're called rich people Having a fast car doesn't make you a genius. PatrickG obviously knows what he's talking about, but he should agree that putting an equally well-made X-pipe setup on his car would increase overall output. He just probably doesn't want to do it because of ground clearance and fitment issues.
To even suggest that because one guy on all of tech has a really nice y-pipe setup negates the entire sport of racing is the only thing that's plain ludicrous. If PatrickG cut his y-pipe setup off and put on an equally well-made X-pipe setup, he WOULD gain power. If you understood fluid dynamics and understood the superiority of the X-merge vs. the y-merge, you'd agree with me
Gave a nice day.
There's a lot of people out there with fast cars that don't know anything about them. They're called rich people
Having a fast car doesn't make you a genius. PatrickG obviously knows what he's talking about, but he should agree that putting an equally well-made X-pipe setup on his car would increase overall output. He just probably doesn't want to do it because of ground clearance and fitment issues.
02-29-2008, 05:57 PM
#94
So, by your logic, crossovers don't work since all they do is cause turbulence? You know what causes a lot of turbulence? Taking two pipes and smashing them together at 120* angles and jamming the flow into one straight pipe. It's called a y-merge, and the turbulence is why y-pipe setups tend to be a lot raspier than X-pipe setups.
02-29-2008, 06:08 PM
#96
Obviously, you are neither fast, rich, or smart. You truley don't understand what you are talking about. A y-pipe can be made to equal the performance of an x-pipe if done correctly. Thats the bottom line here. Its all about sound preference and alot of people in this thread agree. And I think that if Patrick thought that the x-pipe would have made more power he would have used it, dontcha think? duh?
You can't look at his decision and say it was without a doubt the best one he could have made from a power production standpoint. He would have had to run a dual exhaust at some point to let that serve as a basis for comparison, and to my knowledge, he never did.
02-29-2008, 06:36 PM
#99
Everyone keeps referring back to Patricks final decision on his exhaust, but I have a feeling that that was more driven by the F-body's design rather than all out performance. Most people don't want to pay what it costs to run a nice over the axle dual exhaust setup on these cars. I have around $1600 or so tied up in mine...
You can't look at his decision and say it was without a doubt the best one he could have made from a power production standpoint. He would have had to run a dual exhaust at some point to let that serve as a basis for comparison, and to my knowledge, he never did.
You can't look at his decision and say it was without a doubt the best one he could have made from a power production standpoint. He would have had to run a dual exhaust at some point to let that serve as a basis for comparison, and to my knowledge, he never did.
With this point I will agree. To actually end this debate would require the budget the size of GM. I am really not that worried about which is better...just hate it when we have people on the forum who speak out of their *** about something they either know nothing about or worse think they do and are just too stupid to know it. Looking at the situation realistically, both can be made to perform so close to each other as to nullify the gains. What it really comes down to is sound and how much time and money someone is willing to put into an exhaust system.
Galen
Oh, and I am pretty sure Patrick does have quite a bit of money tied up in his exhaust, unless he is good friends with LG who made his merge and I ***-u-me made the rest of his y-pipe. I am pretty sure that if he thought he could have gained more than a couple of horsepower with a different exhaust, he would have gone a different route.
Last edited by Galen; 02-29-2008 at 06:48 PM.
