The bad X systems I'm refering to ARE the ones like TSP's and the Dr. Gas X systems, the commonly used ones on this site. Look at the merge on their X crossovers!

Here is a picture of a good X-crossover vs a BAD X-crossover so you can see what I'm talking about.

BAD:




GOOD:

 

hah Choco's been called out...

great way to practice what you preach lol

here's the rough guide for ideal systems, this doesn't take into account **** poor design decisions. Taken from our exhaust sticky. How about we just leave it at sound preference because quite honestly, you don't have to go crazy big for either setup to achieve a good supporting exhaust setup. Just go with your budget and build it right.


"Hey guys I just got done reading a good article in the May 2005 issue of Popular Hot Rodding Magazine. The article was written by David Vizard who seems to be one of the most accredited and respected people in the automotive performance world. In the article he stated that CFM is a great way to help develop a zero loss exhaust system. For zero loss a exhaust must flow 2.2 CFM per horsepower(This means less than 1% of total power produced by the engine is lost due to back pressure.). From reading the article I think that a lot of people that see gains when going from a 2.5” exhaust system to a 3” dual system see them because the muffler on the 2.5” system didn’t flow enough for their application. David stated that per square inch of exhaust tubing there is 115 CFM of flow. So plugging some numbers into the good ole TI-89….. ((3.14 * radius^2)*115[*2 for a dual exhaust system])/2.2 = Max hp supported with zero loss

A 2.75” (stock) single system is good for a 310hp engine with zero loss…
A 3” Single system is good for a 370hp engine with zero loss…
A 3.5” Single system is good for a 503hp engine with zero loss…
A 4” Single system is good for a 657hp engine with zero loss…
A 2.25” dual system is good for a 457hp engine with zero loss…
A 2.5” dual system is good for a 513hp engine with zero loss…
A 3” dual system is good for a 812hp engine with zero loss…

Now these numbers are assuming that everything else is set up perfectly. The muffler must flow as much as the open pipe or more to get zero loss at the listed hp levels. He also states that using a muffler with a larger inlet/outlet diameter than your exhaust pipe is a great way to get more out of a smaller diameter system since the muffler flow will be able to match the straight pipe flow. Now there are many other things to consider when designing an exhaust system but I figured this would give a great foundation to build on."

 

Would also like to note that our stock system's have been shown to have factory freaks running 330HP at the wheels on the dyno, so while it's said to be engine, keep in mind that our engines are being held back by the exhaust quite a bit. My gain of 43 hp from exhaust is just an atypical gain a lot of us see from exhaust.

 

I have seen many pictures of TSP TD's and I've never seen one with a merge like that. Obviously, that one looks pretty screwed up. All the ones I've seen have been a nice X-merge.

So let's clarify: you're comparing really crappy X-pipe systems to nearly perfect y-pipe systems?

Now, how is that a fair comparison?

 

That pic is off their website, don't blame me.

And to clarify, yes, I am comparing TSP's duals to a burns stainless Y merge.

It doesn't have to be fair when you said: "No, the TD's outperform in EVERY CASE."


But hey, TSP is giving an affordable product to the masses that performs better than the average y-pipe setup, that's great for them. But don't get all confused and think that it's a GOOD system. It works better than most y-pipes and is affordable, and that is all. By comparison, the Burns stainless X system in that pic is going to run upwards of $1000. Most people don't want to spend that on their exhaust system, hence why there are options like TSP and Dr. Gas.

 

Yes, they do, in every case where you are comparing equal things. Equally well-made merges, equally well-flowing mufflers and cats, etc...as I posted like 10 posts ago. You're skewing the argument. A y-merge cannot outperform the equally well-made x-merge.

 

Here, I'll quote you again, you tell me if this reads "equally well made"

You've mentioned mufflers, pipe diameter, cats.. but never mentioned anything about the merge iteself. You were very generic in your decription. That's what I was calling you on. Especially when you were using TSp duals as the basis of your arguement. But now we're arguing semantics and that doesn't haveanything to do with Y vs X.

 

Yes, I was, because I was talking about the GENERAL case. You're the one skewing the argument, trying to compare the world's best y-pipe setup to the world's worse TD setup. TD's will outperform a y-pipe in every case where you're using the same mufflers, cats and the same quality merge. That's my point - the general case. Stop twisting words and stop selectively quoting things to make it look like I said something I didn't

You're grasping at straws, here. A comparison use useless if you're comparing something high quality to something of poor quality.

I'll refer back to my FIRST post:

It's not my fault you won't read my posts. It's a level playing field. You're selectively quoting me AFTER the level playing field has already been established. That means it's your mistake, not mine.

 

Oh, wait Asmodeous. Let's keep going with this.

From my SECOND post:

Hmm, "equally well-made".

Again, my conditions from the very beginning were "equally well-made" where we are comparing the best of each. It's not my fault you can't read.

Read. The. Thread. First.

 

Please explain this statement using something other than your already self-established expertise on exhaust systems. Mainly, how splitting one pipe into two (the only difference between equal x and y pipes after the initial merge) is going to produce more horsepower. Does the turbulence caused by the extra split somehow cause the exhaust gas to be sucked out better than a smooth flowing pipe? You may try using a simple drawing to illustrate your point.

By the way, the Burn's merge can be copied for about $15...much cheaper than my Flowmaster merge in my y-pipe...so don't blame laziness for **** poor design.

Man, I miss the days when I was 18 and knew everything!

Have another wonderful day!

Galen

 

The X-merge scavenges better than the Y-merge. There is no argument, here. This is common knowledge and has been proven through years of dyno tuning and racing. Again, there's a reason why every hardcore racer out there that is required to run an exhaust system runs TD's with an X-pipe. Nothing outperforms. X-pipes have been proven to OUTPERFORM OPEN HEADERS on lower powered cars, too.

Perhaps you should invent a time machine so you can go back to the day you were 18. Being out of school for so long may have hampered your ability to learn

 

I find it hilarious that if you want answers to this debate, look no further than the "True Duals FAQ" sticky at the top of this section (and look who it was written by, LOL):

 

Did you miss my first post in this thread where I said that the main difference is the sound and that neither are going to have major power gains over the other?

I just wanted to point out your flawed exhaust theory. You were trying to say that more flow area = more power, which is misleading and inaccurate.

You can stop swinging from my nuts now man. Its kind of annoying. You even took the time to bold font your quote from my sticky

 

 

IS this where you hide your gay ****?

 

Which is the point I have been trying to make also. But you jumped my nuts and even called me names for pointing out the truth. Way to go "professional"

Well, you misunderstood me (or maybe I didn't phrase it quite right). And yes I realize that more flow doesn't always mean more power. But it does on an engine that requires more flow. You definitely are not talking to a newbie to the automotive world. I maybe a newbie to tech, but I guarantee you I've been around this kind of technology FAR longer than you have (you are only 25 and thats how I know).

Wishful thinking on your part. And quite honestly, there is not much to swing from. LOL. You may return to your fantasy internet racing world now...

 

Well then a big misunderstanding I guess.

So how long have you been around this technology since you know it all? Still havent heard what you drive or if its even modded.

I am back in my internet racing world, cant you read my title?

 

LOL. You must be an engineer because you like to argue just as much as me. Reminds me of the joke: "Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in mud, after awhile you figure out the pig enjoys it" LOL.

I don't know it all and never claim to. But I do enough to call out the 1 or 2 boneheads in this thread that think they know it all (and in reality don't know anything, you know who you are).

And I hate internet racing, thats why I don't give out too much info on the internet.

Congratulations?

 

Yet you give out the area of a circle formula like it proves that a particular exhaust will make more power based on area alone. Like you were the only person in the thread that could figure out the area of a circle. Then come to find out you likely dont even have a car let alone a modded one and you cite "internet racing" as a reason not to say anything. I guess 90% of the sites members, moderators, and admin are all internet racers since we tell people what we have.

 

Why yes, if you consider lesbian **** gay ****

<<<---Jordan