DYNO results - MACs to ARH 1 7/8 headers
#21
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Oh, so sorry, an extremely rare typo on an internet forum. Don't take points off my test, teacher
Nope, I see the point perfectly. I see a guy that went from ancient midlength headers and a poorly designed y-pipe to longtubes with high velocity merge collectors and a velocity spike and a MUCH better designed y-pipe with a MUCH better merge and extremely high flowing cats that don't take away virtually any horsepower and didn't gain anything at all. Perhaps it's you that doesn't understand this. It wouldn't be the first time.
Right. Tune out that little voice of common sense. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Maybe you're not smart enough to realize that 1 7/8 headers are a bad choice on a 346, even virtually any H/C 346. Tony Mamo seems to believe this. I think I'd believe him over some random guy on a forum no one pays any attention to.
They're very high flowing cats. They take away virtually nothing.
Are you this dense? The argument was if they would take away vs. a 1 3/4 longtube. A 1 3/4 longtube wasn't even used in this test. He switched to 1 7/8 headers and couldn't even outpull a mid on the top end. Look at the curve, it's not even any better. I'm not impressed at all.
The idea is not to "put him down." At the very least, he has a longtube that'll at least last forever unlike the Macs. It's simply discouraging other members from doing this if performance is the goal.
Nope, I see the point perfectly. I see a guy that went from ancient midlength headers and a poorly designed y-pipe to longtubes with high velocity merge collectors and a velocity spike and a MUCH better designed y-pipe with a MUCH better merge and extremely high flowing cats that don't take away virtually any horsepower and didn't gain anything at all. Perhaps it's you that doesn't understand this. It wouldn't be the first time.
They're very high flowing cats. They take away virtually nothing.
The idea is not to "put him down." At the very least, he has a longtube that'll at least last forever unlike the Macs. It's simply discouraging other members from doing this if performance is the goal.
#22
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If they are high flow cats maybe -2 or -3hp at most you'd lose. I had a buddy dyno going from stock rims and tires to 17x11 w/315's and lost barely any power at all, I think it was all down low like 2hp. But whatever, a gain is a gain i guess to some.
#23
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???? And if performance wasnt the goal you would recomend what?
For the last time he added a world class header system that will meet his future needs. You would rather him buy it one step at a time and then have to re-sell take a loss and then spend more money.
Look more than one day ahead Taco. Your failing to see the road in front of you.
Doing it your way will cost him twice as much.
Tony Mamo and I have worked together in the past. We went with a stepped to 1 7/8 for my 347 with his massaged 205's ported FAST 90 and 238/240 cam. Any other questions? Stepped headers have a purpose.
#24
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Even then it's an unreliable argument since it's going from mids to longtubes. The OP would have to buy 1 3/4 ARH's and 1 7/8 ARH's and dyno them back to back to say anything definitive. Until that happens, Tony Mamo's dyno of the 1 3/4 LG's demolishing the 1 7/8 ARH's is still the best evidence offered thus far.
#25
Tech Resident
Simple. Buy 1 3/4 headers and put them on. The OP doesn't planning on going big with his setup for what seems like a few years down the road. IT may not even happen. The smartest thing to do is buy the appropriate header now, then if the time comes, sell it because you will recover 2/3 of the cost, anyway since they're stainless. THEN buy the larger header if it is absolutely necessary. When you set your goals so far in the future, they tend not to happen at all.
No, it won't. His "future needs" are years in the future. His "future needs" may not exist 6 months from now because he may not own the car. It would be different if he was in the process of building a 408 and already ordered a turbo for it. The fact is, his future plans may not even happen because they're just too far away. Especially with $4/gal gas on the horizon and a slowing economy, people may not want a 9 mpg car years in the future.
For the last time he added a world class header system that will meet his future needs. You would rather him buy it one step at a time and then have to re-sell take a loss and then spend more money.
Look more than one day ahead Taco. Your failing to see the road in front of you.
Doing it your way will cost him twice as much.
Look more than one day ahead Taco. Your failing to see the road in front of you.
Doing it your way will cost him twice as much.
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Like I've said all along, the MACs are a good header and obviously make power. I will always recommend a used set for a street car on a budget. To the OP, don't stress over it...
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Ehh. I slept on it and decided to clarify some points. STILL THINK THE COMPARISION BLOWS, but I can acknowledge the points made. Still, we must remember that although adding a 9" can cause up to 15hp in parisitic loss, the OP IS NOT RUNNING A 9". And I haven't seen any #s on how much HP the heavier wheels are worth.
OP, I hope you didn't take my previous comments the wrong way. The fact is I think LTs are a good mod. Thats why i have my kooks 1 7/8" LTs. My issues was that your comparision doesn't show anything, and you are expecting members who are considering purchasing LTs to believe that the difference was eaten up by heavier wheels.
Conclusion. GOOD MOD, BAD COMPARISION. IMO, LTS don't really show significant benifits till after a cam anyway. Its a solid modification if you plan on camming the car someday. If not, the money could have been spent in a better place. Anyhow, sorry for appearing hostile in the earlier posts.
OP, I hope you didn't take my previous comments the wrong way. The fact is I think LTs are a good mod. Thats why i have my kooks 1 7/8" LTs. My issues was that your comparision doesn't show anything, and you are expecting members who are considering purchasing LTs to believe that the difference was eaten up by heavier wheels.
Conclusion. GOOD MOD, BAD COMPARISION. IMO, LTS don't really show significant benifits till after a cam anyway. Its a solid modification if you plan on camming the car someday. If not, the money could have been spent in a better place. Anyhow, sorry for appearing hostile in the earlier posts.
#29
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Mac is not a bad header at all, even more with a little work....Mine has the 3 bolt collector setup to replace the ball and has the flowmaster merge. Im willing to bet they dyno within 2-3 hp of LT headers. The best thing is I only paid $250 for them.
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3.6hp loss from this guy switching from 9" to 11" rims. Its an old test but the wheel change was done on the same day, same Dyno.
http://www.ws6.com/wheels.htm
Choco Did your mom not hug you when you were a baby or something? Its always you destroying someones post and insulting people for not modding their car exactly how you see fit. Seriously man chill out.. give your advice and opinion and move on. Its obvious you are very passionate about your way of doing things but there is just no need to be soo nasty about everything. you are scaring people off more than helping anything.
http://www.ws6.com/wheels.htm
Choco Did your mom not hug you when you were a baby or something? Its always you destroying someones post and insulting people for not modding their car exactly how you see fit. Seriously man chill out.. give your advice and opinion and move on. Its obvious you are very passionate about your way of doing things but there is just no need to be soo nasty about everything. you are scaring people off more than helping anything.
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3.6hp loss from this guy switching from 9" to 11" rims. Its an old test but the wheel change was done on the same day, same Dyno.
http://www.ws6.com/wheels.htm
Choco Did your mom not hug you when you were a baby or something? Its always you destroying someones post and insulting people for not modding their car exactly how you see fit. Seriously man chill out.. give your advice and opinion and move on. Its obvious you are very passionate about your way of doing things but there is just no need to be soo nasty about everything. you are scaring people off more than helping anything.
http://www.ws6.com/wheels.htm
Choco Did your mom not hug you when you were a baby or something? Its always you destroying someones post and insulting people for not modding their car exactly how you see fit. Seriously man chill out.. give your advice and opinion and move on. Its obvious you are very passionate about your way of doing things but there is just no need to be soo nasty about everything. you are scaring people off more than helping anything.
#32
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3.6hp loss from this guy switching from 9" to 11" rims. Its an old test but the wheel change was done on the same day, same Dyno.
http://www.ws6.com/wheels.htm
http://www.ws6.com/wheels.htm
So he lost 3.6hp from the wheels and 2hp from the cats for a total of 5.6hp loss. So he only gained about 8hp over the stock mac mids.
#36
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How was the air quality and how did it compare to the day this guy dynoed. also did the .5 hp loss you saw actualy get done same day? In other woprds they laid a baseline down and then swapped out the rear and dynoed same day at the same temps?
I know how much I experienced and honestly your arguing against physics here. It weighs more, it will cause a loss just because of the weight of it alone let nevermind the gearing. Do a search an you will find a thread where somene baselines, swaps their rear to a 9 and then dynos all in the same day and records 19hp and like 17tq loss. Thats about as accurate as your going to get for a test like this.
You guys are bagging on this guy for what? He posted his results, why is that so hard for some to accept?
I know how much I experienced and honestly your arguing against physics here. It weighs more, it will cause a loss just because of the weight of it alone let nevermind the gearing. Do a search an you will find a thread where somene baselines, swaps their rear to a 9 and then dynos all in the same day and records 19hp and like 17tq loss. Thats about as accurate as your going to get for a test like this.
You guys are bagging on this guy for what? He posted his results, why is that so hard for some to accept?
next day, same dyno, same weather. im not trying to argue with u im just saying 19hp is not the norm. as a matter of fact i dont think there is a norm. every car responds diff to diff mods. my car picked up 70+ rwhp from my heads, another car on the same dyno picked up 30 rwhp with my exact heads and exact supposrting mods.
#39
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Thank God for smart people like you on this forum. Guys like you are just full of good info
#40
Ehh. I slept on it and decided to clarify some points. STILL THINK THE COMPARISION BLOWS, but I can acknowledge the points made. Still, we must remember that although adding a 9" can cause up to 15hp in parisitic loss, the OP IS NOT RUNNING A 9". And I haven't seen any #s on how much HP the heavier wheels are worth.
OP, I hope you didn't take my previous comments the wrong way. The fact is I think LTs are a good mod. Thats why i have my kooks 1 7/8" LTs. My issues was that your comparision doesn't show anything, and you are expecting members who are considering purchasing LTs to believe that the difference was eaten up by heavier wheels.
Conclusion. GOOD MOD, BAD COMPARISION. IMO, LTS don't really show significant benifits till after a cam anyway. Its a solid modification if you plan on camming the car someday. If not, the money could have been spent in a better place. Anyhow, sorry for appearing hostile in the earlier posts.
OP, I hope you didn't take my previous comments the wrong way. The fact is I think LTs are a good mod. Thats why i have my kooks 1 7/8" LTs. My issues was that your comparision doesn't show anything, and you are expecting members who are considering purchasing LTs to believe that the difference was eaten up by heavier wheels.
Conclusion. GOOD MOD, BAD COMPARISION. IMO, LTS don't really show significant benifits till after a cam anyway. Its a solid modification if you plan on camming the car someday. If not, the money could have been spent in a better place. Anyhow, sorry for appearing hostile in the earlier posts.
No worries, thanks for manning up and apologizing. Point is, everyone thought I would lose and I didn't, I actually picked up a small amount. And it sets me up for the future. I wasn't after an improvement but considering I picked up a couple, after the heavier wheels, I call it good.
Also, we ALL need to stop thinking in terms of HP IMO, but rather in terms of percentages. If you lose 3hp on a 300hp mill, odds are you will lose 4 on a 400hp mill. ALso, on the 3.6 above, those were OEM speedline rims - much lighter than the aftermarket repops. Rotating mass is important, especially unsprung rotating mass.
Again, for the record: this motor has 137k on it. It runs awesome, but a big cuber will replace it.
Last edited by jmilz28; 04-12-2008 at 07:46 PM.