jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Speak for your own future, chief. Leave mine to me.

Fact is, this wasn't intended to be all things to all people. What it DOES show is that big tubes COST you nothing anywhere, as I noted in the other post. It is conclusive of that. It is indicative that you actually gain a small amount - moreso once you consider adding heavier wheels, at least on my car.

So I went from the good MACs to very good (but overkill) ARHs and gained a small amount with no penalty at all, anywhere, with heavier wheels. This is true whether the wheels cost me 3 or 13hp.

I am offering my own directly relevant experience (and money) to help the other guys in the same situation trying to decide if it's worth it to go to big tube headers. I'll back it up by putting it BACK on the dyno, but you gotta pay for it if you are wrong. Care to? Unless you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, you should consider:
a. shutting up or
b. actually being helpful.
My input is helpful, yours is not. I don't mind constructive criticism, but you're just trolling.

bigdsz

iTrader: (1)

Well, I'm gonna throw a little more gasoline on the fire. FWIW, I'm not sure 1 7/8 LT's are necessary even on big cubes. From my sig below, I've got 1 3/4 Jet Hots and am making 524/501 through a 9" with a very heavy Dennys Nitrous DS. Go figure. Torque is 420 at 3,000 rpm's.

MikeG

iTrader: (33)

How do you know you wouldnt make 540/520 with a set of 1 7/8's? I don't understand your point.

bigdsz

iTrader: (1)

All I'm trying to say is that bigger isn't necessarily better. A friend of mine with almost the same setup I have, but with 1 7/8 Kooks and a 12 bolt is 483/465. Same dyno, same tuner.

ChocoTaco369

And...where does it show you this?

I see a guy that went from midlength headers to 1 7/8 longtubes on a completely different day. I see no comparison from a 1 3/4 longtube to a 1 7/8 longtube. Nothing was done on a similar day. Your comparison is worthless.

All I see is a guy that spent $1500 and gained no horsepower at all. Justify whatever you want in your mind. I'm too drunk to go on any further. Whatever helps you sleep at night, chief. I just don't want to see other people make the same mistake you did and spend all their money for no gain.

ChocoTaco369

Again, you're missing the point. You need to go from a 1 3/4 longtube to a 1 7/8 longtube with dynos done on the same day to even make a proper comparison. Mac mids are pure junk, and from the dynos I've seen, the ARH's just don't make the power that other longtubes do. I'd feel way better with a Kooks or QTP longtube from what I've seen. Again, $1500 spent, 0 horsepower gained on your dynos. I don't know why you should be so happy. I see this as nothing more than a justification of your hard earned money spent in your own mind. But it's not my money, so I guess I can see it from the more omnipotent point of view. I don't have an agenda. Anyways, whatever, like I said before, too drunk to many any sense right now. I'm just kinda typing sorry. I'm hoping I'm spelling it okay. ttyl.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Show me where I ever mentioned 1 3/4...
oh, I see - nowhere.

You fail to read/comprehend. Look over this and the related threads carefully tomorrow and then apologize for being a nonsensical drunk ***.

Way to be helpful. With as many posts as you have, I would have thought you could have something to offer. I was certainly wrong about that.

ls2 bait

iTrader: (11)

half those posts were him saying how the qtp long tube is the god of all headers.

ChocoTaco369

Go back to the thread you liked to:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-external-engine/889284-1-7-8-ar-headers-lightly-modded-ls1.html

That entire thread was 1 3/4 vs. 1 7/8. You were warned by the pros that they are too big for not only a stock 346, but nearly any NA 346 you can throw together. Your dyno graphs seem to prove this theory since they did jack vs. a poorly designed midlength and y-pipe, but again, it's hard to gauge anything since you failed to produce a good comparison. You failed to use another 1 3/4 longtube - the entire purpose of the original thread. You didn't even take 20 minutes and put the other tires back on. All mayou have done is provide vague justifications that may or may not mean anything. We have one guy saying tires will be a 10-15 rwhp loss Then we have several others saying not even 5 rwhp. No one knows anything with the poor reference dynos we have.

I'm making an *** of myself? With the thousands of "what if's" and vague justifications you're fabricating to make yourself hurt less after a $1,500 purchase, I guess I could say the same thing to you But like I've said several times, whatever helps you sleep at night. Hope the dyno graphs didn't give you nightmares last night

ChocoTaco369

Maybe 5-10 of them. Don't think I've ever called them the God of anything. They're definitely a good deal for the materials used and I have no regrets. Much better deal than some other brands.

INMY01TA

iTrader: (1)

Teach us all more Choco.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Logic seems to elude you:
I never mentioned 1 3/4, only offered my experience being in at a very similar decision point, not identical. i.e. small header vs. big header. The OP on that thread felt it helpful input. Except opinon and negativity, did you contribute anything?

MACs are a solid performer, so say guys at Icon and LMR. What's your experience? Did you contribute anything?

The graphs were offered as firm data, but only indications, not conclusions. I offered them as such and clearly outlined the variables that changed and those that didn't. You seem to be unable to read/acknowledge the disclaimers of those variables. I even admitted I was too tired to change the tires as I should have. Did you contribute anything?

Knowledgeable people know the significance of rotating mass, unsprung weight, and parasitic loss. You don't get it, at least fully. This is clear and demonstrated by your unwillingness to admit 10-15 hp (including the cats), is possible. Again, what did you contribute?

To clarify my intent--From the thread in the Dyno section:
Quote:

Originally Posted by 98Z28CobraKiller
I could be wrong but that isnt how I read those dyno sheets. I thought that the one dyno sheet is the mac's, before and after tuning and then the other is the ARH's before and after tuning.

Please clearify Jimilz28.

As far as whether or not he wasted money, there's to ways to look at that. If he has no intentions of making significantly more power (500 rwhp+), then these headers were a waste of money. If he does intend on getting to these numbers, then he will indeed grow into them.

Cobrakiller, you are correct:
dyno1 is the MACs + ORY + 17x9.5 rears - untuned, then tuned
dyno2 is the ARH 1 7/8 + catted Y + 17x11 rears - untuned, then tuned
All other mods are the same. Yes they are different dynos but they tend to run consistent. Additionally, that variable could make the numbers go either way, so it's just as likely that I picked up MORE than what it shows.

If one understands that the cats and heavy *** rears cost a few ponies, it becomes clear that, at the flywheel I picked up a few HP and torque. Whether the delta is 2, 5, or 15 - it's a gain.

My only goal was not to lose anything and prepare for big power. (Win) If you look at my mods, everything I have done is preparing the car to handle power and have good control over the car. So this mod does that too (Win #2). Finally, I actually picked up a few and didn't lose any HP or torque anywhere. (Win #3) If you look carefully at the graphs and map the points vs RPM, you will see the torque curve did not change.

Yes, it was a good bit of coin but it's what I was after. I wanted:
1. A platform to grow
2. Not to lose any HP or torque
3. Quieter
4. Deeper
5. Less smelly
6. And MAYBE pick up some ponies
7. A quality, reliable system

7 goals achieved, I call that a win. Some people are too thick to get that.

So this is not 100% conclusive, nor was it intended to be. It IS INDICATIVE that, done properly and tuned, these LS engines like to breathe and going big on headers does not hurt at all. It may not be optimal (as some say 1 3/4 are) but my scenario didn't address that, nor was that my intention from the start. Cost was not much of a concern here as I wish I had done it right the first time.

I hope this helps some people consider another option in an educated fashion.

Bad thing is, now I'm kind of stuck. From here, all I can do is add power - so it's time to decide - go into the engine or just spray it and save for an engine!

End quote.

I did put MY *** on the line and offered to re-dyno to see what ONLY the rear wheels cost me. I bet it's 5hp. Regardless, it will show what that cost me - which is the inverse of what the headers gained. (You obviously don't get this concept). If it is 5hp or more, you pay for the dyno. If it's not, I'll pay it. Care to put your money where your mouth is?? Again, I ask what you have contributed to any of these threads?

I'll make a prediction: You'll continue to spout your negative, nonsensical, harassing crap and offer no positive contribution. You won't take my wager, but if you did, you would welch, and still continue to spout your crap. What have you contributed? Provide something meaningful or go troll someone else's thread.

ChocoTaco369

Logic eludes me...but you fail to realize that your comparison is terrible. Again, whatever helps you sleep at night. You're the only one impressed here for some reason

TheSilverOne

iTrader: (22)

all his post are about qtp and seafoam

when it comes to stuff like this, don't listen to a person with a slower car than yours.

ChocoTaco369

There's some great logic right there So, what makes the OP's logic so great? Is it the complete lack of evidence? Is it the random, purely fabricated explanations void of evidence to attempt to explain the low dyno numbers? Is it the hypotheticals? Is it the huge inconsistencies in the dynos, be it the day it was done, the tires on the car, the completely different style headers used, etc... I'm curious to see why you think one of the worst comparisons in LS1tech history is such a good one? Or are you just trying to start more ****?

I would say approximately 100-150 of my posts have anything at all to do with QTP's products or Seafoam.

ls2 bait

iTrader: (11)

dude for the love of god get over it and get the hell out of this thread. u r not adding anything worthwhile and just pissing people off.

INMY01TA

iTrader: (1)

This is true. Fact of the matter is his car's a and the fact that he's trying tell people how to be fast is laughable. He has no experience with Mac headers, 1 7/8 headers, nothin.

Built LT1

iTrader: (3)

I always find it humorous when people without English skills sarcastically correct others...

ChocoTaco369

My car is in a different state than I reside. Why should I spend thousands of dollars into useless car mods for a car I rarely drive? Do you think I can't afford to make my car fast? Or could it be I have better uses for my money?



Right. In order to have common sense, you have to have pissed away tens of thousands of dollars into useless car mods. That level of intelligence explains your posts Truth is, I couldn't care less how fast my car is. I have too much to occupy my time as is.

INMY01TA

iTrader: (1)

Doesn't matter. Your car's slow, so are you. You have no business aruing with people faster and insulting them. etc. You know jack!
Ya that's why you have like 5,000 posts on LS1 Tech.