Stock Motor 1 3/4" Vs. 1 7/8 Engine Dyno Results!!
09-07-2008, 12:13 AM
#62
LSxGuy widda 9sec Mustang
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Since I see it asked a lot; the truck coils were all we had that were not bolted to an actual car. We use truck coils and LS2/LS7 coils when we don't have a car to "borrow" them from.
09-07-2008, 10:11 AM
#65
damn everyone needs to just shut their mouths and take the results in...
read the results and make your own judgement, quit bashing TSP...
1 3/4" pacesetters < 1 7/8" TSP that is all these results state
read the results and make your own judgement, quit bashing TSP...
1 3/4" pacesetters < 1 7/8" TSP that is all these results state
09-07-2008, 10:18 AM
#66
i got an idea just for $hits and giggles mind you...hows about you compare the
KOOKS 1 3/4 to the PaceSetters 1 3/4 to the Edelbrock 1 3/4 to the TSP 1 3/4" and SLP 1 3/4 LT's then post that up as well?
and pace setters are not junk...for the price fit/finish best bang for the buck IMO
KOOKS 1 3/4 to the PaceSetters 1 3/4 to the Edelbrock 1 3/4 to the TSP 1 3/4" and SLP 1 3/4 LT's then post that up as well?
and pace setters are not junk...for the price fit/finish best bang for the buck IMO
09-07-2008, 11:03 AM
#67
Tech Resident
i got an idea just for $hits and giggles mind you...hows about you compare the
KOOKS 1 3/4 to the PaceSetters 1 3/4 to the Edelbrock 1 3/4 to the TSP 1 3/4" and SLP 1 3/4 LT's then post that up as well?
and pace setters are not junk...for the price fit/finish best bang for the buck IMO
KOOKS 1 3/4 to the PaceSetters 1 3/4 to the Edelbrock 1 3/4 to the TSP 1 3/4" and SLP 1 3/4 LT's then post that up as well?
and pace setters are not junk...for the price fit/finish best bang for the buck IMO
Pacesetters ain't what they used to be. They're bottom of the barrel for sure.
09-07-2008, 11:07 AM
#68
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That's good to know, but that's not an apples-to-oranges comparison. The TSP 1 7/8" headers are a brand new design and of pretty high quality for coated headers. The Pacesetters are a design half a decade old, and they're one of the cheapest longtubes on the market and also the smallest. Just look at the difference between Pacesetters vs. Edelbrocks:
They are both 1 3/4" headers, and I can guaran-damn-tee you that the Edelbrock 1 3/4" headers will outperform the Pacesetter 1 3/4" headers just the same.
IMO, this comparison is meaningless because you're comparing a quality header to old, bottom-of-the-barrel junk. You need to compare the same design. If it were Kooks 1 3/4" headers vs. Kooks 1 7/8" headers, then I'd be content. if it were ARH 1 3/4" headers vs. ARH 1 7/8" headers, then I'd be content. That way, it's an apples to apples comparison.
Also, the fact that you can't show power below 3000 rpms is discouraging. That is the powerband for daily driving, and that's where the 1 3/4" headers shine. You're not going to see the benefits of the 1 3/4" headers because the dyno won't allow it.
I'm not trying to insult you or discourage you. I'm just pointing out facts. It's a bad comparison by not choosing the same brand and design, and even if it were, the dyno leaves out the very powerband that shines with the smaller primaries. I'm not going to sacrifice a 15rwtq loss @ 2200 rpms for a 3rwhp gain at 5800 rpm's. Sorry to be a buzzkill.
They are both 1 3/4" headers, and I can guaran-damn-tee you that the Edelbrock 1 3/4" headers will outperform the Pacesetter 1 3/4" headers just the same.
IMO, this comparison is meaningless because you're comparing a quality header to old, bottom-of-the-barrel junk. You need to compare the same design. If it were Kooks 1 3/4" headers vs. Kooks 1 7/8" headers, then I'd be content. if it were ARH 1 3/4" headers vs. ARH 1 7/8" headers, then I'd be content. That way, it's an apples to apples comparison.
Also, the fact that you can't show power below 3000 rpms is discouraging. That is the powerband for daily driving, and that's where the 1 3/4" headers shine. You're not going to see the benefits of the 1 3/4" headers because the dyno won't allow it.
I'm not trying to insult you or discourage you. I'm just pointing out facts. It's a bad comparison by not choosing the same brand and design, and even if it were, the dyno leaves out the very powerband that shines with the smaller primaries. I'm not going to sacrifice a 15rwtq loss @ 2200 rpms for a 3rwhp gain at 5800 rpm's. Sorry to be a buzzkill.
I def agree with you, that this comparison between headers means nothing because you didnt use the same brand of headers. How can you conduct a test and not use the same headers if your trying to prove that bigger primaries make more power?
09-07-2008, 11:52 AM
#69
I guess I can explain this again. This was a test of the best bang for the buck headers. I will gladly test every header you guys listed if you'll send them to me. We have the engine dyno cell being started very shortly so I'll be able to test all these crazy theories you guys can come up with..
Implying the Pacesetters are somehow inferior to the newer headers on the market is rediculous. I'd put them against any 1 3/4 header we've been discussing. For the money they're still virtually impossible to beat IMHO.
Anyone who thinks this comparision shows the Pacesetter is somehow inferior is just crazy. I've installed tons of brands of headers on customers cars & the pacesetter always does what we expect them to do.
I'll be expecting a header shipping here from each of you guys that somehow think the brand you listed will make more power than the others tested.
Sometimes I just don't get it, I did the testing of several different headers, and yet guys with no dyno experience make claims like:
Implying the Pacesetters are somehow inferior to the newer headers on the market is rediculous. I'd put them against any 1 3/4 header we've been discussing. For the money they're still virtually impossible to beat IMHO.
Anyone who thinks this comparision shows the Pacesetter is somehow inferior is just crazy. I've installed tons of brands of headers on customers cars & the pacesetter always does what we expect them to do.
I'll be expecting a header shipping here from each of you guys that somehow think the brand you listed will make more power than the others tested.
Sometimes I just don't get it, I did the testing of several different headers, and yet guys with no dyno experience make claims like:
Edelbrock's, Hookers and TSP headers are all about the same price as Pacesetters. They all also outperform the Pacesetters and are of better quality. Also, with the LPP headers available now, for another $100, you can get stainless steel that'll vastly outperform the Pacesetters. Pacesetters may have been the best bang for the buck out there 3 years ago, but today, with so much competition out there, you can get better performing, better made headers for the same price.
Pacesetters ain't what they used to be. They're bottom of the barrel for sure.
Pacesetters ain't what they used to be. They're bottom of the barrel for sure.
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
09-07-2008, 11:55 AM
#70
Edelbrock's, Hookers and TSP headers are all about the same price as Pacesetters. They all also outperform the Pacesetters and are of better quality. Also, with the LPP headers available now, for another $100, you can get stainless steel that'll vastly outperform the Pacesetters. Pacesetters may have been the best bang for the buck out there 3 years ago, but today, with so much competition out there, you can get better performing, better made headers for the same price.
Pacesetters ain't what they used to be. They're bottom of the barrel for sure.
Pacesetters ain't what they used to be. They're bottom of the barrel for sure.
From your posts we can gather that Mac headers make no power, Pacesetters make 5hp more than that, and QTPs give a whopping 40 more hp than everyone elses. 
When in reality they're all within a few hp of each other. Eye dyno, priceless. Last edited by INMY01TA; 09-07-2008 at 12:01 PM.
09-07-2008, 12:20 PM
#71
Tech Resident
I guess I can explain this again. This was a test of the best bang for the buck headers. I will gladly test every header you guys listed if you'll send them to me. We have the engine dyno cell being started very shortly so I'll be able to test all these crazy theories you guys can come up with..
Implying the Pacesetters are somehow inferior to the newer headers on the market is rediculous. I'd put them against any 1 3/4 header we've been discussing. For the money they're still virtually impossible to beat IMHO.
Anyone who thinks this comparision shows the Pacesetter is somehow inferior is just crazy. I've installed tons of brands of headers on customers cars & the pacesetter always does what we expect them to do.
I'll be expecting a header shipping here from each of you guys that somehow think the brand you listed will make more power than the others tested.
Sometimes I just don't get it, I did the testing of several different headers, and yet guys with no dyno experience make claims like:
Implying the Pacesetters are somehow inferior to the newer headers on the market is rediculous. I'd put them against any 1 3/4 header we've been discussing. For the money they're still virtually impossible to beat IMHO.
Anyone who thinks this comparision shows the Pacesetter is somehow inferior is just crazy. I've installed tons of brands of headers on customers cars & the pacesetter always does what we expect them to do.
I'll be expecting a header shipping here from each of you guys that somehow think the brand you listed will make more power than the others tested.
Sometimes I just don't get it, I did the testing of several different headers, and yet guys with no dyno experience make claims like:
That is BS. Pacesetters are one of the crappiest LT's on the market, and I'm not surprised that your headers outperformed them. I'd never buy Pacesetters with your headers, Edelbrocks and Hookers all in the same price range. They are all much better headers than the outdated Pacesetter design. Your headers are obviously a lot better, but you did not title this thread Pacesetters vs. TSP, you titled it 1 3/4" headers vs. 1 7/8" headers. I don't want to see guys buying the inappropriate sized header because of a poor thread title.
09-07-2008, 12:22 PM
#72
Tech Resident
Lol. Where do you get this **** from? You act like you dyno test every header. You don't even race your own car. From your posts we can gather that Mac headers make no power, Pacesetters make 5hp more than that, and QTPs give a whopping 40 more hp than everyone elses. When in reality they're all within a few hp of each other. Eye dyno, priceless.
From your posts we can gather that Mac headers make no power, Pacesetters make 5hp more than that, and QTPs give a whopping 40 more hp than everyone elses. When in reality they're all within a few hp of each other. Eye dyno, priceless.
09-07-2008, 12:24 PM
#73
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loll .. yeah soo much racing and spirited driving is done at 2200 rpm. Even if there was a huge rwtq loss its not like we are talking about a 4 cyl honda engine here that struggles to move at 2500 rpm... its a big honkin v8 with probably 275-300 rwtq at 2000 rpm.. do you really think it will make the car undrivable as many people claim?
Wait... Let me answer that with NO it won't make the car undrivable or even make a difference at all! I know this first hand because I have 1 7/8" headers on my stock internal car and I don't even have to have some push the car at intersections to get it moving! It even rolls forward when I take my foot off the brake just like a car with 1 3/4" headers! there is even no problem with torque even in lockup at 2000 rpm on the highway! imagine that.. in fact.. It drives just like a car with 1 3/4" headers except I probably have more peak hp. Its Amazing!!
Seriously though all the claims of drivability problems because of a torque loss when using 1 7/8" are untrue. I've yet to read about anyone saying the car was no longer streetable or felt any significant loss after installing 1 7/8" headers on a stock cube car. Hell I've seen dynos where mild cams give more of a torque loss below 2500 than what the claimed loss from 1 7/8"s would do but yet nobody questions that.
Even if there was a huge rwtq loss its not like we are talking about a 4 cyl honda engine here that struggles to move at 2500 rpm... its a big honkin v8 with probably 275-300 rwtq at 2000 rpm.. do you really think it will make the car undrivable as many people claim? Wait... Let me answer that with NO it won't make the car undrivable or even make a difference at all! I know this first hand because I have 1 7/8" headers on my stock internal car and I don't even have to have some push the car at intersections to get it moving! It even rolls forward when I take my foot off the brake just like a car with 1 3/4" headers! there is even no problem with torque even in lockup at 2000 rpm on the highway! imagine that.. in fact.. It drives just like a car with 1 3/4" headers except I probably have more peak hp. Its Amazing!!
Seriously though all the claims of drivability problems because of a torque loss when using 1 7/8" are untrue. I've yet to read about anyone saying the car was no longer streetable or felt any significant loss after installing 1 7/8" headers on a stock cube car. Hell I've seen dynos where mild cams give more of a torque loss below 2500 than what the claimed loss from 1 7/8"s would do but yet nobody questions that.
09-07-2008, 12:57 PM
#74
Tech Resident
loll .. yeah soo much racing and spirited driving is done at 2200 rpm. Even if there was a huge rwtq loss its not like we are talking about a 4 cyl honda engine here that struggles to move at 2500 rpm... its a big honkin v8 with probably 275-300 rwtq at 2000 rpm.. do you really think it will make the car undrivable as many people claim?
Wait... Let me answer that with NO it won't make the car undrivable or even make a difference at all! I know this first hand because I have 1 7/8" headers on my stock internal car and I don't even have to have some push the car at intersections to get it moving! It even rolls forward when I take my foot off the brake just like a car with 1 3/4" headers! there is even no problem with torque even in lockup at 2000 rpm on the highway! imagine that.. in fact.. It drives just like a car with 1 3/4" headers except I probably have more peak hp. Its Amazing!!
Seriously though all the claims of drivability problems because of a torque loss when using 1 7/8" are untrue. I've yet to read about anyone saying the car was no longer streetable or felt any significant loss after installing 1 7/8" headers on a stock cube car. Hell I've seen dynos where mild cams give more of a torque loss below 2500 than what the claimed loss from 1 7/8"s would do but yet nobody questions that.
Even if there was a huge rwtq loss its not like we are talking about a 4 cyl honda engine here that struggles to move at 2500 rpm... its a big honkin v8 with probably 275-300 rwtq at 2000 rpm.. do you really think it will make the car undrivable as many people claim? Wait... Let me answer that with NO it won't make the car undrivable or even make a difference at all! I know this first hand because I have 1 7/8" headers on my stock internal car and I don't even have to have some push the car at intersections to get it moving! It even rolls forward when I take my foot off the brake just like a car with 1 3/4" headers! there is even no problem with torque even in lockup at 2000 rpm on the highway! imagine that.. in fact.. It drives just like a car with 1 3/4" headers except I probably have more peak hp. Its Amazing!!
Seriously though all the claims of drivability problems because of a torque loss when using 1 7/8" are untrue. I've yet to read about anyone saying the car was no longer streetable or felt any significant loss after installing 1 7/8" headers on a stock cube car. Hell I've seen dynos where mild cams give more of a torque loss below 2500 than what the claimed loss from 1 7/8"s would do but yet nobody questions that.
That is a pathetic "argument," and I put "argument" in quotes because it's actually an attempt at a thinly veiled insult.Obviously, any headers will be an increase in power all over the powerband vs. stock manifolds. However, the vast majority of F-body's are not race cars. Almost none of them are. They're almost all daily drivers or weekend cars. The vast majority of them are also stock internals cars. Therefore, 99% of the car's life is not spent at WOT. The vast majority of the life of the motor will be spent well under 3,000 rpms, incidentally the chunk of the powerband the engine dyno cannot show.
How is it the same people on this site that at one point claim "every horsepower helps" all of a sudden do not care about the 5-10rwhp lost under 3,000 rpms due to larger primaries? How come all of a sudden, these smaller amounts of power don't matter?
Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'll continue to modify my car appropriately to fit my driving style and so the mods match up properly. I care about under the curve power as much as above the curve power.I should have known not to respond past the first page in this thread. It took a few pages, but the cheerleaders are finally starting to show up. Some people you just can't talk sense into.
09-07-2008, 01:22 PM
#76
LSxGuy widda 9sec Mustang
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Flowtech is what I would consider bottom of the barrel. We had the chance to offer them in the same pricing group as Pacesetter, when we opened the first box and seen them, we immediately sent them back. Pacesetter has its advantages still and you can make really good power with them, our testing wasn't set out to slaughter them, rather just to compare them to see where they stand.
Pacesetter, Edelbrock, QTP, Kooks, ARH, all have their place and there becomes a point where personal preference and value takes over since many probably make within 4-5hp of each other. Some people like Starbucks coffee, some like Seattle's Best coffee, and many, many more will only get McDonalds coffee. In the end its still coffee.
Pacesetter, Edelbrock, QTP, Kooks, ARH, all have their place and there becomes a point where personal preference and value takes over since many probably make within 4-5hp of each other. Some people like Starbucks coffee, some like Seattle's Best coffee, and many, many more will only get McDonalds coffee. In the end its still coffee.
09-07-2008, 01:29 PM
#78
FormerVendor
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This post would have been great if "choco" would have stayed out of it. Really he has done nothing but create a personal crusade to argue against this point.
TSP: I applaud you guys for putting in the effort to do some testing and put more data out there.
Basically anyone planning to do a heads/cam 400+ rwhp setup in the future, is money ahead buying 1-7/8" in the first place. Who cares of a set of $1000 LG/Kooks or something else makes more power on a stock motor, when later with a heads/cam setup the 1-7/8" will shine and out perform them.
TSP: I applaud you guys for putting in the effort to do some testing and put more data out there.
Basically anyone planning to do a heads/cam 400+ rwhp setup in the future, is money ahead buying 1-7/8" in the first place. Who cares of a set of $1000 LG/Kooks or something else makes more power on a stock motor, when later with a heads/cam setup the 1-7/8" will shine and out perform them.
09-07-2008, 02:23 PM
#79
Choco you stating that LPP's are of superior quality to anything is pure crap, my dogs take ***** of higher quality, they are built by SSautochrome, absolutely the worst quality exhaust components ever made, seriously how many damn pipes does it take to make 1 primary? I just came from owning a turbo import and I read a thread about SSautochrome's manifolds falling apart, wastegate tubes falling off, turbos falling off, almost daily... FWIW I understand where you are coming from but I think you are taking the info supplied somewhat out of context. ( edit just noticed you did NOT say they were better quality but did say they would "vastly outperform", which I dont believe either )
Jason @ TSP thanks for contributing your time and efforts to get real data available for those that want to know, regardless of what anyone says these numbers are of use to many people on the fence of what headers to buy.
Jason @ TSP thanks for contributing your time and efforts to get real data available for those that want to know, regardless of what anyone says these numbers are of use to many people on the fence of what headers to buy.
Last edited by 00pooterSS; 09-07-2008 at 02:31 PM.
09-07-2008, 07:18 PM
#80
so really your only argument is that TSP miss titled the thread...basically that is all you are arguing...
I ******* hate guys like you that shoot their opinion about **** they know nothing about...
its always something in one thread or another...
do us all a favor and stay out of TSP threads...all you do is **** them off and now they are not going to post all of their findings because of arrogant asses like you that think they know everything...
I ******* hate guys like you that shoot their opinion about **** they know nothing about...
its always something in one thread or another...
do us all a favor and stay out of TSP threads...all you do is **** them off and now they are not going to post all of their findings because of arrogant asses like you that think they know everything...
Look, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. You titled this thread "Stock Motor 1 3/4" Vs. 1 7/8 Engine Dyno Results!!" That means, when just reading the title, 1 3/4" headers vs. 1 7/8" headers. You said nothing in the title about TSP headers vs. Pacesetter headers. People will read this thread and think "because TSP headers outperformed Pacesetters, that means it's always better go to 1 7/8" over 1 3/4", even on a stock motor!"
That is BS. Pacesetters are one of the crappiest LT's on the market, and I'm not surprised that your headers outperformed them. I'd never buy Pacesetters with your headers, Edelbrocks and Hookers all in the same price range. They are all much better headers than the outdated Pacesetter design. Your headers are obviously a lot better, but you did not title this thread Pacesetters vs. TSP, you titled it 1 3/4" headers vs. 1 7/8" headers. I don't want to see guys buying the inappropriate sized header because of a poor thread title.
That is BS. Pacesetters are one of the crappiest LT's on the market, and I'm not surprised that your headers outperformed them. I'd never buy Pacesetters with your headers, Edelbrocks and Hookers all in the same price range. They are all much better headers than the outdated Pacesetter design. Your headers are obviously a lot better, but you did not title this thread Pacesetters vs. TSP, you titled it 1 3/4" headers vs. 1 7/8" headers. I don't want to see guys buying the inappropriate sized header because of a poor thread title.