View Poll Results: Would you install an "off-the-shelf cam" dot-to-dot?
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Dot-to-dot.. or not?
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 170
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From: Over the rainbow
Dot-to-dot.. or not? Im buying an off-the-shelf cam and was starting to wonder whether I should just spend the extra dollars and get a workshop to install it.
I called THREE workshops and they ALL said they'd just install it straight up and not degree it in. I just had to give them the part number of the cam and springs I wanted and they'd supply the pushrods, timing chain and tune.
The cam is a Comp 54-456-11 - 219/227 .607/.614 112LSA
w/ Patriot dual springs
Would you install an off-the-shelf like this one dot-to-dot?
Main reason for a workshop was I didn't have the equipment to degree it in, if they won't even bother, I'll just do it myself then
I called THREE workshops and they ALL said they'd just install it straight up and not degree it in. I just had to give them the part number of the cam and springs I wanted and they'd supply the pushrods, timing chain and tune.
The cam is a Comp 54-456-11 - 219/227 .607/.614 112LSA
w/ Patriot dual springs
Would you install an off-the-shelf like this one dot-to-dot?
Main reason for a workshop was I didn't have the equipment to degree it in, if they won't even bother, I'll just do it myself then
Why not contact Gunnar at Patriot and ask him how often they have seen grinding issues?
Its always best to degree the cam, and the money you would have spent for the shop to install is more than enough to buy the tools to do it yourself and in the end you have a set of tools for future use.
Its always best to degree the cam, and the money you would have spent for the shop to install is more than enough to buy the tools to do it yourself and in the end you have a set of tools for future use.
Good points vettenuts. The tools to degree a cam don't cost a lot. If you are so bent on finding a shop to degree it, why wouldn't you spend the money for the tools instead and degree it yourself. It's much easier to spend a little time while the engine is apart to check the cam than waiting to crank it up and realize you are down on power or other running issues and have to take it apart again. The odds are probably in your favor that installing it straight up without checking won't cause any problems but why chance it?
i would at least get the cam doctored so you know it was cut right..i was just reading a thread the other day where a shop bought an "OFF THE SHELF" cam from a sponsor and it was 4 degrees off good thing they degreed it when they put it in...
always degree a cam or have it at least cam doctored so you know it was cut right...
always degree a cam or have it at least cam doctored so you know it was cut right...
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TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 458
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From: Bellaire, TX
NO! dot to dot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cams are cut wrong way to often, take the cam and cam card to a GOOD shop and make sure it's correct. Buy a cam degree tool from Summit or Jegs and DIY, It's too easy not to. And this way you know the valve events are happening the way the cam was designed.
cams are cut wrong way to often, take the cam and cam card to a GOOD shop and make sure it's correct. Buy a cam degree tool from Summit or Jegs and DIY, It's too easy not to. And this way you know the valve events are happening the way the cam was designed.
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For most "off-shelf" applications, you're not going to gain anything degreeing the cam unless you're shooting for a particular ICL for the cam to be on. However for custom built setups with combo's spec'd out to work with each other, than yes I would recommend this.
For your standard off shelf cylinder heads, and off shelf vendor cam degreeing isn't necessary. Just check your PTV clearance, measure preload to make sure you have the right length pushrod, and roll on out.
For your standard off shelf cylinder heads, and off shelf vendor cam degreeing isn't necessary. Just check your PTV clearance, measure preload to make sure you have the right length pushrod, and roll on out.
Just for the record, degreeing a cam is not installing it any other way than dot to dot. Its just checking to be sure the cam is right.
You can advance or retard the cam with a set of gears with multiple keyways.
I think people are somwtimes comfused and think that degreeing a cam means what position the cam is installed in.
You can advance or retard the cam with a set of gears with multiple keyways.
I think people are somwtimes comfused and think that degreeing a cam means what position the cam is installed in.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 58
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Just for the record, degreeing a cam is not installing it any other way than dot to dot. Its just checking to be sure the cam is right.
You can advance or retard the cam with a set of gears with multiple keyways.
I think people are somwtimes comfused and think that degreeing a cam means what position the cam is installed in.
You can advance or retard the cam with a set of gears with multiple keyways.
I think people are somwtimes comfused and think that degreeing a cam means what position the cam is installed in.
very true. often custom ground cams should be checked just to be safe. ive wasted my time on toooooo many occasions degreeing off the shelf cams to find out they were right on the money. im not saying that sometimes cams arent ground wrong but more often then not they are correct right out of the box, especially from comp cams. theres a 99.99% chance it will be just fine dot to dot.
yes degreeing a cam is nothing more than checking to make sure the cam is cut right, when it is installed it is dot-dot then it is checked by using a degree wheel...if all the events are correct then you are good to go, piece of mind...but if it is off say 2-4 degrees it is a good thing you caught it and checked, cause you could have some ptvc problems or not make as much power as the canm is designed to...can either be fixed by sending it back or using an ajustable timing chain and retarding it or advancing it to where it is supposed to be...
also an adjustable timing chain is nice if you are using a custom cam and think the ptvc might be close...in my case it was on the intake side a little tighter than i liked at .072 and exhaust was around .130 so i retarded the cam 2 degrees and gained around .014 so my intake is now at .086 and exaust will lose some clearance to .116...
every degree will gain on average around .006-.007 more or less...
hope this helps a little
Last edited by chrs1313; Jan 3, 2009 at 05:23 PM.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Lexington, KY
The smart thing to do is to degree it. But on my last one I did not. I did however visually compare the dowel location with respect to the first lobe on the new cam to the original cam. It could have been off a few degrees, but if it had been ground way off I would have been able to tell. Usually if they are off at all they will be way off (like 180), though I think it's pretty rare to find it these days.
TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 458
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From: Bellaire, TX
look at the link i posted in post 5...you might wanna change your odds there from 99.99% of all of the shelf cams are cut correct...there is 2 cases right there that shows it happens...
yes degreeing a cam is nothing more than checking to make sure the cam is cut right, when it is installed it is dot-dot then it is checked by using a degree wheel...if all the events are correct then you are good to go, piece of mind...but if it is off say 2-4 degrees it is a good thing you caught it and checked, cause you could have some ptvc problems or not make as much power as the canm is designed to...can either be fixed by sending it back or using an ajustable timing chain and retarding it or advancing it to where it is supposed to be...
also an adjustable timing chain is nice if you are using a custom cam and think the ptvc might be close...in my case it was on the intake side a little tighter than i liked at .072 and exhaust was around .130 so i retarded the cam 2 degrees and gained around .014 so my intake is now at .086 and exaust will lose some clearance to .116...
every degree will gain on average around .006-.007 more or less...
hope this helps a little
yes degreeing a cam is nothing more than checking to make sure the cam is cut right, when it is installed it is dot-dot then it is checked by using a degree wheel...if all the events are correct then you are good to go, piece of mind...but if it is off say 2-4 degrees it is a good thing you caught it and checked, cause you could have some ptvc problems or not make as much power as the canm is designed to...can either be fixed by sending it back or using an ajustable timing chain and retarding it or advancing it to where it is supposed to be...
also an adjustable timing chain is nice if you are using a custom cam and think the ptvc might be close...in my case it was on the intake side a little tighter than i liked at .072 and exhaust was around .130 so i retarded the cam 2 degrees and gained around .014 so my intake is now at .086 and exaust will lose some clearance to .116...
every degree will gain on average around .006-.007 more or less...
hope this helps a little
Cams are not ground perfect at all. We've seen them be more than 4* off and that was with a very popular off this shelf cam on this site.
Not degreeing it in can account for why one person see's more power than another with the same combo. Its not that dot to dot is incorrect, but unless you check you dont know where your at.
I've seen some shops who dont check and then there are those who wont put a cam in without checking. We always check, it's easy enough and performance can be effected by it. How much it's effected all depends on how far its off. To some its minimal to others minimal is a world of difference. (Some guys spend hundereds to chase that 5 extra ponies, some guys dont think it matters.)
Not degreeing it in can account for why one person see's more power than another with the same combo. Its not that dot to dot is incorrect, but unless you check you dont know where your at.
I've seen some shops who dont check and then there are those who wont put a cam in without checking. We always check, it's easy enough and performance can be effected by it. How much it's effected all depends on how far its off. To some its minimal to others minimal is a world of difference. (Some guys spend hundereds to chase that 5 extra ponies, some guys dont think it matters.)