Chris - The iron block shares the same 4.4" bore spacing as the aluminum blocks.

 

I don't see any problem with that assuming the garage is heated.

This is probably a non issue but I do want to point out that no one has been through a sub zero winter with an MID sleeved block. I'm confident that the new MID specific gaskets Cometic is working on will do the job at any temp you are likely to encounter in any case.

 

Will different gaskets help/hurt any chances of cold weather damage? I am in NY so it gets that cold everyonce in a while. Should I not start/drive the car that day, or should I ,too warm it up. I am just looking for some heads up on what parts are required like cometic gaskets and what part is reco like Evans coolant. Steve if u could list requiremenst and suggestions separately that would be great. Bear

 

This is a stupid question, but here it goes:
I assume both the dry sleeves and the MID are static fit setups, correct? If so, what makes the MID less prone to sleeves moving/dropping/shifting, whatever you want to call it ? Is it the ribbing the MID sleeves have in them to provide for a more firm fit?

 

Also, what do the Evan's water pumps run, cost wise?

 

They are in the $400-$600 range, depending on if you get them ceramic coated.

 

The MID uses both a static and an adhesive to maintain contact. Additionally, the sleeve tops are not round, but rather might be described as a circle with two sides shaved off where the two edges that mate to the neighboring cylinder make contact. If you look at the picture supplied below, you'll see an example of the edge. This one happens to be an "end" cylinder, hence the single straight edge

 

Darton has info at their web site - http://www.darton-international.com/main_fr.htm

Click on Services / Publications & manuals / LS1 manual

Regarding the use of Dex-Cool. Check out:[url]http://www.cwcd.com/CM/MassTorts/MassTorts5.asp
There appear to be a lot of unhappy customers out there.

Best results with the MID kits is to use Evans NPG+ coolant or the new racing coolant which will be available shortly. Racing coolant has better heat transfer but will only go to 10 below zero (not a problem here but it may be where you are).

There is no chance of localized hot spots boiling Evans coolant as there is with a water based product. There is no chance of cavitation damage to the surface of the sleeve exposed to coolant as there would be with a water based product. Electrolytic damage at the sleeve block interface is also greatly reduced or eliminated.

Evans modified pump flows more coolant but just as importantly, flows a more equal amount of coolant to each bank of cylinders. The flow does not drop off to the right bank at high revs as it does with the stock pump.

Use Evans or another suppliers 160 degree inlet side stat. Evans is working on a modification to the pump to increase the coolant flow substantially (double) with their outlet side thermostat housing. This should be available shortly for those of you with really high powered engines.

Cometic gaskets have a spring steel face which greatly helps in sealing. The MID specific gasket will be out shortly. The block deck must be machined flat and smooth as I am doing now with my installations. Previous installations were done for the Fel Pro gasket which seemed to work best with the sleeve set slightly below the deck surface of the block.

Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development

 

I want to follow up on Scott's reply to your question (not so stupid by the way) about sleeve "dropping".

As Scott descibed, the MID sleeves have flats on the sides so they butt up against one another adding support and rigidity to the structure. But besides this feature there is a considerable difference in the method used to seat the sleeves and the width of the sleeve at the point of seating among other things. I have attached photos of the machined sleeve seat in an LS6 block and the lower part of a sleeve depicting the sleeve seating area and o'rings.

I see that a lot of readers here don't really understand the difference between the dry wall sleeved block and the MID wet sleeve block so if you refer to the pictures while studying my math and description below it will be a great help to you.

A bit of math here to show the difference between MID and dry wall dimensions.

The MID block lower section is bored to a diameter of 4.285" to accept the o'ring area of the MID sleeve. The sleeve body OD is 4.600" above the o'ring area. Therefore, 4.600" - 4.285" = .315" Divide this figure by two to get the seating ledge width which is .1575". While we are figuring thickness, 4.600" - 4.125" (bore diameter) = .475". Wall thickness is half this difference or .2375" - slightly less than a quarter inch.

The dry sleeves are not straight wall as many think but have a slight flange at the top. The flange diameter is slightly less than 4.400", the bore spacing, but I'll be generous and say the flange diameter is 4.400". The dry sleeve body has an OD of 4.250". So the seating ledge width is: 4.400" - 4.250" (sleeve body diameter) = .150"/2 or .075". The sleeve wall thickness is 4.250" - 4.125" / 2 = .0625".

Mid sleeve .1575" seating ledge width vs. dry wall seating ledge at top of sleeve of .075". Mid sleeve wall thickness .2375" vs. .0625" of dry wall sleeve.

The sleeve seating ledge width and area of the MID sleeve is over two times that of the dry wall sleeve. The MID sleeve wall thickness is 3.8 times the thickness of a dry wall sleeve.

Aluminum is soft and will deform especially if it gets hot. The dry sleeve is sitting on the flange at the top of the sleeve where combustion heat is greatest. If the engine gets hot the aluminum will soften enough for the sleeve to "drop". Blown gasket, end of story.

MID sleeve sits on a robust flange surrounded by coolant far removed from combustion heat. Not much chance of an MID sleeve "dropping" if the block machining is done to specified tolerances and the sleeve is installed properly.

Hope my photos and explanation is enlightening.

Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development

 

Wow, I am THOROUGHLY impressed with the amount of info you're providing us, Steve. This is more than I could have expccted. Most people give us a washed overview of certain processes and it leaves most of us with a confused look on our faces.

This MID setup looks to be like the real deal. Even though the sleeves are a static and adhesive fit they can't compete with say the C5R block but I think the difference is less than negligible. For the money, the MID setup looks to be the P-I-M-P setup for big bore. The cooling passages in the sleeves is very ingenious, also.

Steve, would you be able to show us a cutaway of an LS1 block that shows the stock coolant and oil passages? I have always wanted to see how they run in the block and I have never seen it before.

 

Also, I noted in the MID install instructions that a red loctite looking sealent is required. Can this sealent ever dry-out, crack or leak and lead to block failure?

My coolant temp never gets over 180*F, even in 100*F weather in stop and go traffic. Is my coolant system up to task with my 427 I currently have? I have a larger capacity radiator.

 

I've had the same re-sleeved LS1 block now for 2 years with too many 9 second passes to even count. I have NEVER had a single issue with it. There is only one company that makes the re-sleeve process work in my opinion and that is ARE.

Mikey

 

Twenty doesn't seem that cold. Are any set ups being tested in that type weather?

 

question, reading the instruction provided on darton's site, it says to prime the pump before starting.. how in the world do you do that w/ an ls1?? second, the break in procedure, how many people actually follow that fully?

 

I never said there was a problem, I said I was unsure of cold weather the reason being none have run in cold weather. We came out with the first kits this spring and summer.

Steve

 

The only way to prime the LS1 - LS6 engine for most people is by turning it over with the starter preferably with the plugs out. It is possible to make an external primer but for the average guy this is overkill.

I've been building engines for thirty years so I have more than a bit of experience with engine break in procedures. A racing engine requires little or no break in. Reason for this is the the clearances are built much looser than on a street engine. For long street engine life, follow the directions. The break in instructions at the Darton site refer to any high performance street engine, they were not meant to imply there is something unusual about a Darton sleeved LS1 engine that requires a special break in procedure.

 

Your coolant system is probably OK. The more power you make the more attention you have to pay to cooling.

The red sealant is Loctite 518. It will not degrade over time. This and Loctite 515 (both flange sealants) are used on many production cars to seal both coolant and oil. If the product failed in use the warrantee costs to the auto makers would be pretty high don't you think?

Did you see the article on the class action suit against the makers of Dex-Cool? I believe you were the one asking about the need for Evans coolant over Dex-Cool.

Regarding your request for stock coolant passage data. The MID sleeve does not alter the stock coolant flow path. Coolant enters the block through the rectangular holes and flows to the back of the block where it rises and enters the heads. From there it flows forward, reenters a block passage on each bank and flows out the round holes to the radiator. There are bleed holes in the gasket around each cylinder to help prevent steam pockets from forming. The MID flange does a much better job of keeping the deck area cool than the stock block. This is a patent pending feature of the sleeve design.

Another weak feature of the dry sleeved blocks is the area between the cylinders. If you look closely at the attached picture you will see a square hole in the wall between cylinders where I am machining the cylinder wall away. This is a coolant cross over passage cast in the aluminum between cylinders in all LS1 - LS6 blocks. There is almost no aluminum to support a dry wall sleeve in the area between the cylinders in the upper area of ring travel. Makes it pretty hard to keep the thin wall sleeve round with no support behind it.

The MID sleeves are considerably stronger than the sleeves in a C5R block. Same 130,000 psi tensile ductile iron as used by almost every top fuel and funny car team - Darton supplies most all the top runners. The only advantages the C5R block has over a standard block with MID sleeves are the steel main caps and studs. You can add these to any LS1 or LS6 block (not really necessary except for the highest out put engines). You will find that you can build two really strong MID blocks for the price of one C5R and have money left over.

The oiling system is pretty straight forward once you get past the crank driven oil pump ala Vega, Ford, Honda, etc. It is not really that good compared to a priority main oiled block like the Bow Tie and Ford SVO stuff. It seems to get the job done however for a production engine and that's what counts.

You might want to pick up HP Books "Chevy LS1/LS6 Performance". It has some good data on engine mods and specs for this series engine.

Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development

 

I have a Cartek built Darton sleve MID 427 engine. The thing dynoed at 530 rwhp in a C5 A4 coupe with a 4000 stall. I hold the ET record for N/A C5 at 10.40 @ 130 mph. I have ran the engine all this past summer with no issues at all. I love it and would recomend that process to any one. Thanks John.

 

Steve, you rock man! I greatly appreciate all the info.

 

John, you certainly have your act together. Congrats to Julio and Dave at Cartek. They were one of the first shops to order MID kits from Darton and are certainly up on getting power out of an LS1/LS6 engine.

Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development