blu1

ding ding ding!

Welcome to marketing 101, all it takes is a pretty picture to sell products to stupid teenagers.

Jason 98 TA

iTrader: (4)

Or maybe the result of being able to test these different combos is we can build the best products. Doesn't it make sense that if you spend enough time testing & developing you can build a better product?

If something isn't as good as it's suppose to be, I go back and redesign & update until it's the best I can possibly make it...

I guess shoot me for it...

Scyry

You don't think AFR spent tons of time, money and R&D producing their after market casting? I doubt their 205 head today is identical to the 205 head that originally came out. All companies better be continually improving their product or they will be passed by.

I am just stating it is impossible that every single one of your products is better than a competitors similar product. I am not saying all your dyno graphs are bad. Call me cynical, but when the graph is produced by the company trying to sell the product, and the graph is always 100% is favor of said salesman, for every product, something is not right.

Maybe the test you did the cam favored your heads and not the AFR. Maybe with a different cam, or intake the AFR's would out shine your heads. Your graphs and posts make it sound like your budget heads (don't take that as a put down, they are cheaper in price is all I am refering to) are better than the AFR's in every way. To me that is misleading, as any head will do best with a setup that is best for it. If you said "our 5.3 heads are better than the AFRs with the cam you have, see here is a graph with a cam like yours," I'd be totally in line with that. One cam doesn't fit every head. Plus there are other characteristics like deck thickness to consider when picking a head.

chrs1313

iTrader: (24)

No that totally makes sense but show the graphs where you did fall short, and then a later graph on what you did to fix it...Simple as that, shows that we all cant get it right the first time. But it just looks like you throw some heads/cams on a engine and BAM they always come on top...showing your faults is not always a weakness...i mean even if the 5.3 heads came up 10rwhp under the AFRs that is still a smoking deal for $1000+ less...now beating them is hard to swallow, since all we have ever seen from dyno's and track times contradicts that...

I know if i was going to post something like that i would have all of the information up front on how the test was performed to be as fair and neutral as possible, because i know that post would start a sh*t storm...

chrs1313

iTrader: (24)

yeah i am definitely down and serious about this...i already have the heads that i wanna try...they are sitting in Robs (98bluesscamaro) closet...i would love to run them against TFS215's or AFR 205s or even AFR 225s, and then whatever TSP has...

The heads are TEA stg 2.5 LS6 heads...valves are 2.05, 1.60...

I know he will be down for the test...Seriously let me know, TSP that goes for you too...

Jason 98 TA

iTrader: (4)

Chris I hope you understand why we can't give everyone of those 140+ dyno tests. As you can probably guess spending over 140 pulls in the 224 duration has helped us to maximize power output.

Sales2@Texas-speed

iTrader: (5)

We're down for it. Let us know when you wanna come down, and which heads of ours you'd like to see tested against them (Stage 2.5 LS6 sounds like an apples to apples deal)! We can even test the TEA's first and have the PRC's being cut on the machines in the meantime, pull them off, and slap them on so you can be sure there are no ringers or whatever

98blueSScamaro

iTrader: (14)

Oh wow looks like a trip to texas this winter i have the T.E.A ls6 stage 2.5 that i am going to put on my car after i get the car in to the 10.xxs cam only. So if my local 701 union is not going to strike i am down.

jkkaz

I don't understand all the fuss. It's a 220cc head versus a 205cc head. They flow similarly yet one has much smaller runners. I think the AFR's are a better flowing head for the runner volume, but if I'm paying for the heads out of my pocket, I'm willing to make some sacrifices on the bottom end, throttle response or whatever just because of the price. Don't forget AFR's run about $2300 vs $1100 for the TSP's.

If nobody challenges the pricing on the heads, they will remain what I consider an over inflated price. Now, make an intake that can compete with FAST for half the price and I will name my first born TSP, if I ever have kids that is.

jaschutz79

iTrader: (1)

I'm dead serious. Chris, i'll take the TEA"s. I would be interested in taking a set of TFS 215 down. Lets get some feedback from everyone. Also we would have to make all things equal and decide what cam to test on. Prob somewhere in the middle. I'm prepared to end all this flow number hype. I'll fly down to find out how all these heads compare if TSP would have me.

DGageSS

iTrader: (9)

ok, i have read the whole thread now this is what i think, because everyone is giving their opinions. First of all, i dont know everything about heads but i have a year in searching this forum. I have heard good and bad about tsp and seen it. I have seen a stock 243 cam only car almost beat a car with PRC Stage 1's and the MS4. I have also talked to TSP and TEA and Livernois and a lot of other companies before i chose my MTI Stage 3r heads. Here is what i believe. I beleive that the PRC casting 215 and 237cc are good heads. TSP obviously knows what they are doing with the porting because many people on the forum have them and put down good numbers and track times, theres a guy on here with PRC's and an MS3 and put down 475rwhp. I believe that the 215 casting could be just as good as a trickflow or afr's however i do not believe that the 5.3's will flow as well. Any GM casting shouldn't perform like an aftermarket or the aftermarket company is doing something seriously wrong. i believe that TSP makes their GM casting competitive to everyone else who is not handporting. I do believe that TSP has the capabilities to make great products and they do and they have excellent customer service. All i know is that TSP is large company, they obviously are doing something correct because they are making money (hopefully). Also TSP always has new machines or new test to help us, the customer, find what we are looking for. You can't get mad if you believe that TSP is lying, because we all know that most head companies inflate their flow bench. So if you believe that TSP is lying then take them up on their offer, i would if i wasnt in california but i am considering sending my heads to have them tested against their ls6 castings. So anyways Thanks TSP for everything that you do, i talked to jon yesterday and am looking for some parts (not heads) to finish my 408. again Thanks for you testing TSP.

Back on topic: OP if you are considering TSP 5.3's to afr 205cc then you need to do A LOT more research. The afrs are like 2200 and the 5.3 are what 1200. There are good heads in between those two choices. The PRC 2.5 ls6 are what i was told to get the first time by Pred-z. he said there would work well for what i am looking at. TEA makes good heads, MTI, TSP, Thunder, AFR, TFS, all good heads, just the last two are the best, but thats also because they are not using a stock casting. and that stock casting is limiting, the port runners are different on the AFR TFS PRC 215 237, etc so the stock heads should not compare. They might compare in flow numbers but the AFR TFS and any aftermarket casting should be better then any (even 243's) stock casting.

Thanks for reading this long post

chrs1313

iTrader: (24)

sounds good they are waiting to be tested...maybe make a post to see what needs to be done to keep it as fair as possible...

let rob know when you want them...make sure to bring a video camera

chrs1313

iTrader: (24)

yeah i understand just let people know that this wasnt the first test...i think it is just the way it is posted, if everyone knew you make 140 pulls then it makes more sense...

outkast6991

iTrader: (34)

as far as aftermarket heads being better, just because it isn't a factory casting doesn't automatically make it good. did you know that the AFR'S are heavily based off a stock casting

willyfastz

243's

2000PewterZ28

Great job TSP! Keep up the good work.

outkast6991

iTrader: (34)

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

I agree an independent test would be better and certainly more believable. It would also be nice to use a few off-the-shelf castings of each head to verify consistency and eliminate any chance of additional massaging. This is where the AFR head will shine. They are very consistent from casting to casting which means they will put out repeatable numbers.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Very sad.....

Typical uninformed Internet statement

Either you dont really know (or get it) or you have a hidden agenda we dont know about.

Yes....they bolt up like a 243 or any stock head and the exhaust port height, valve angles and location, rocker stud pad and holes (and head bolt holes) are in the same place. Thats what make them a direct replacement bolt on piece and that where ther similarities end....

And its everything else that gives you a clear performance advantage associated with their construction/design.

Port and chamber configurations are worlds apart (clean sheet design) and the quality, strength, and thickness of the casting (especially in the critical head deck area) are no comparison.

-Tony

Paint_It_Black

iTrader: (1)

Chris, they should send a set of heads to you to be tested. You don't need to go down there and run them on their dyno. Use an independant dyno. You can always send them back for a full refund if you don't use them. After all, they said it in this very thread.. you only pay for them if you keep them!