Tsp stg 2.5 5.3 vs afr 205
07-25-2009, 08:07 PM
#61
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Looking at every dyno graph TSP has posted from their engine dyno, one thing caught my attention. Whether it was cams or heads, the TSP products always out do every competitors products. That is fishy to me. No matter if you have the best company around, some other company will beat one of your products. So I don't trust results that always favor the company trying to sell something to me. I'd feel a lot better about the results if just once a competitor's product would come in second, if not first. Maybe TSP is selecting product they know will not outshine theirs. IDK, just seems fishy.
with the cam Trevor spec'd out for me, 3 years ago.... My TBSS still has the unofficial record for being the fastest "cam only" TBSS. Now with a set of stg 2.5 243's it picked up 40ish rwhp, it will likely be somewhere in the 11's. Damn.... If only it were 1200#'s lighter
07-26-2009, 11:18 AM
#62
Chris, they should send a set of heads to you to be tested. You don't need to go down there and run them on their dyno. Use an independant dyno. You can always send them back for a full refund if you don't use them. After all, they said it in this very thread.. you only pay for them if you keep them!
i know how computer software can be changed or use two different programs that look similiar but have different parameters to give the results you want...just to many variables when you are in their backyard and they are doing the test...
TSP how about sending some heads this way and i will test them just on the dyno vs other similar heads and post all results with a controlled test as possible...you can even tell me the written procedure you would like to be followed...after they are tested i will ship them back...
**** i might even have my dad pull his heads (5.3 stg 2.5) at the end of the season to compare them to the TEA's...only problem is working out a deal for the tuning and dyno time...
07-26-2009, 02:50 PM
#63
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I don't usually chime in with my opinion, but since I have owned various different cylinder heads including both AFR and TFS, and seen some of the differences between them and stock castings, I'll just add my opinion to the gallery here.
First, TFS and AFR make quality products. One definitely gets what they pay for in the case of both of these. I would personally buy either brand again. I would like to say that in my experience these performed well out of the box (CNC ported), but even better with a little touch up from an experienced porter including a good set of valves. But, this does not mean there is anything left to be desired from either product. In my honest opinion, I think comparing AFR, TFS, or Dart heads to a stock casting cylinder head is comparing apples to oranges. There is way more to a cylinder head than just flow numbers. In addition, just because a head flows a certain number on a bench, doesn't necessarily mean its going to make power on an engine. Flow numbers are important, but are not the only indicator of performance.
Also, saying that one's cam-only car was just as fast, or faster than one's car that had a cam and x's cylinder head on it means nothing. There are too many variables to use this as a unit of measure, including the idiot behind the wheel.
I also think that if this were to be a true comparison, then the dyno comparison should be done by an independent tester. With dyno testing, one twist of a **** can change readings so without being the dyno operator or being present, taking the numbers as being completely credible is impossible. At the same time this is not to say TSP's numbers are incorrect. One just has to realize these numbers came from the source so they should consider that when evaluating the data. I think the offer they have made to bring customers in house for testing to prove the credibility is a good one, as long as the customer knows what they are looking at. However, I do not get the impression from them that they are trying to discount anyone's cylinder heads. TSP is a reputable shop, offer good products and they treat their customers well.
As far as recommending a cylinder head to the person whom started this whole thread, basically this comes down to what you care to spend on a cylinder head. If budget is not a concern, I would always choose an aftermarket casting (AFR, TFS, etc.) If budget is a concern then maybe you should look at one of the stock type casting options i.e. PRC, Patriot. You never stated any goal for me to be anymore specific.
First, TFS and AFR make quality products. One definitely gets what they pay for in the case of both of these. I would personally buy either brand again. I would like to say that in my experience these performed well out of the box (CNC ported), but even better with a little touch up from an experienced porter including a good set of valves. But, this does not mean there is anything left to be desired from either product. In my honest opinion, I think comparing AFR, TFS, or Dart heads to a stock casting cylinder head is comparing apples to oranges. There is way more to a cylinder head than just flow numbers. In addition, just because a head flows a certain number on a bench, doesn't necessarily mean its going to make power on an engine. Flow numbers are important, but are not the only indicator of performance.
Also, saying that one's cam-only car was just as fast, or faster than one's car that had a cam and x's cylinder head on it means nothing. There are too many variables to use this as a unit of measure, including the idiot behind the wheel.
I also think that if this were to be a true comparison, then the dyno comparison should be done by an independent tester. With dyno testing, one twist of a **** can change readings so without being the dyno operator or being present, taking the numbers as being completely credible is impossible. At the same time this is not to say TSP's numbers are incorrect. One just has to realize these numbers came from the source so they should consider that when evaluating the data. I think the offer they have made to bring customers in house for testing to prove the credibility is a good one, as long as the customer knows what they are looking at. However, I do not get the impression from them that they are trying to discount anyone's cylinder heads. TSP is a reputable shop, offer good products and they treat their customers well.
As far as recommending a cylinder head to the person whom started this whole thread, basically this comes down to what you care to spend on a cylinder head. If budget is not a concern, I would always choose an aftermarket casting (AFR, TFS, etc.) If budget is a concern then maybe you should look at one of the stock type casting options i.e. PRC, Patriot. You never stated any goal for me to be anymore specific.
Last edited by Sofls1; 07-26-2009 at 02:56 PM.
07-26-2009, 03:46 PM
#64
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I don't usually chime in with my opinion, but since I have owned various different cylinder heads including both AFR and TFS, and seen some of the differences between them and stock castings, I'll just add my opinion to the gallery here.
First, TFS and AFR make quality products. One definitely gets what they pay for in the case of both of these. I would personally buy either brand again. I would like to say that in my experience these performed well out of the box (CNC ported), but even better with a little touch up from an experienced porter including a good set of valves. But, this does not mean there is anything left to be desired from either product. In my honest opinion, I think comparing AFR, TFS, or Dart heads to a stock casting cylinder head is comparing apples to oranges. There is way more to a cylinder head than just flow numbers. In addition, just because a head flows a certain number on a bench, doesn't necessarily mean its going to make power on an engine. Flow numbers are important, but are not the only indicator of performance.
Also, saying that one's cam-only car was just as fast, or faster than one's car that had a cam and x's cylinder head on it means nothing. There are too many variables to use this as a unit of measure, including the idiot behind the wheel.
I also think that if this were to be a true comparison, then the dyno comparison should be done by an independent tester. With dyno testing, one twist of a **** can change readings so without being the dyno operator or being present, taking the numbers as being completely credible is impossible. At the same time this is not to say TSP's numbers are incorrect. One just has to realize these numbers came from the source so they should consider that when evaluating the data. I think the offer they have made to bring customers in house for testing to prove the credibility is a good one, as long as the customer knows what they are looking at. However, I do not get the impression from them that they are trying to discount anyone's cylinder heads. TSP is a reputable shop, offer good products and they treat their customers well.
As far as recommending a cylinder head to the person whom started this whole thread, basically this comes down to what you care to spend on a cylinder head. If budget is not a concern, I would always choose an aftermarket casting (AFR, TFS, etc.) If budget is a concern then maybe you should look at one of the stock type casting options i.e. PRC, Patriot. You never stated any goal for me to be anymore specific.
First, TFS and AFR make quality products. One definitely gets what they pay for in the case of both of these. I would personally buy either brand again. I would like to say that in my experience these performed well out of the box (CNC ported), but even better with a little touch up from an experienced porter including a good set of valves. But, this does not mean there is anything left to be desired from either product. In my honest opinion, I think comparing AFR, TFS, or Dart heads to a stock casting cylinder head is comparing apples to oranges. There is way more to a cylinder head than just flow numbers. In addition, just because a head flows a certain number on a bench, doesn't necessarily mean its going to make power on an engine. Flow numbers are important, but are not the only indicator of performance.
Also, saying that one's cam-only car was just as fast, or faster than one's car that had a cam and x's cylinder head on it means nothing. There are too many variables to use this as a unit of measure, including the idiot behind the wheel.
I also think that if this were to be a true comparison, then the dyno comparison should be done by an independent tester. With dyno testing, one twist of a **** can change readings so without being the dyno operator or being present, taking the numbers as being completely credible is impossible. At the same time this is not to say TSP's numbers are incorrect. One just has to realize these numbers came from the source so they should consider that when evaluating the data. I think the offer they have made to bring customers in house for testing to prove the credibility is a good one, as long as the customer knows what they are looking at. However, I do not get the impression from them that they are trying to discount anyone's cylinder heads. TSP is a reputable shop, offer good products and they treat their customers well.
As far as recommending a cylinder head to the person whom started this whole thread, basically this comes down to what you care to spend on a cylinder head. If budget is not a concern, I would always choose an aftermarket casting (AFR, TFS, etc.) If budget is a concern then maybe you should look at one of the stock type casting options i.e. PRC, Patriot. You never stated any goal for me to be anymore specific.
07-26-2009, 04:02 PM
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yeah i totally agree to that we can even throw them on my car with a mid 230/230 cam on speed inc's dyno...
i know how computer software can be changed or use two different programs that look similiar but have different parameters to give the results you want...just to many variables when you are in their backyard and they are doing the test...
TSP how about sending some heads this way and i will test them just on the dyno vs other similar heads and post all results with a controlled test as possible...you can even tell me the written procedure you would like to be followed...after they are tested i will ship them back...
**** i might even have my dad pull his heads (5.3 stg 2.5) at the end of the season to compare them to the TEA's...only problem is working out a deal for the tuning and dyno time...
i know how computer software can be changed or use two different programs that look similiar but have different parameters to give the results you want...just to many variables when you are in their backyard and they are doing the test...
TSP how about sending some heads this way and i will test them just on the dyno vs other similar heads and post all results with a controlled test as possible...you can even tell me the written procedure you would like to be followed...after they are tested i will ship them back...
**** i might even have my dad pull his heads (5.3 stg 2.5) at the end of the season to compare them to the TEA's...only problem is working out a deal for the tuning and dyno time...
07-26-2009, 04:17 PM
#66
robs TEA2.5 Ls6
dads 5.3 stg 2.5
and whatever else you can get a hold of...
07-26-2009, 05:05 PM
#67
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Wow this thread is intense!
I think what would be awesome to see and what would really push the envelope of LSX power is an Annual LSX Engine Masters Challenge! Get all the shops together to show off what they can do at an independent dyno. Set up competition parameters and rules. Whoever makes the most average power would win.
This would be alot of fun and push R&D to another level.
I think what would be awesome to see and what would really push the envelope of LSX power is an Annual LSX Engine Masters Challenge! Get all the shops together to show off what they can do at an independent dyno. Set up competition parameters and rules. Whoever makes the most average power would win.
This would be alot of fun and push R&D to another level.
07-26-2009, 06:50 PM
#68
Usable Power Please. What I would like to see is a comparision of heads in a part throttle test. I drive my car 500 miles a week. It sees alot of action at 70 Mph (ok 79Mph). To me the power thats available at say 15 or 20 % throttle to 50 % throttle for a highway pass or small burst of acceleration without down shifting is very important to me. Sure WFO is great too but not if the head is going to make my car act like a 125cc 2-stroke dirt bike that finds itself 3000 rpm below the power band. (thats the big red rubber band way down deep in the engine)
Yes, I realize, I'm talking about Torque, but correct me if I'm wrong but don't all those graphs we look at, even at the lower RPM's, the throttle is wide open.
The power I'm talking about is drivability power. I couldn't even if I wanted to run around with my foot mashed all the way down. All over town. No one seems to keep the mind what the cars real day to day use is!
I choose AFR 205's because my experience with rebuilding and modifying 2-strokes taught me some hard lessons that bigger ports are not always better.
I thought those smaller runners would produce more power with less throttle.
Then as always I have to go overboard and I'm having Tony port them to work better in a LS2 short block (which I intend to get from Texas Speed).
So there, I'm making everyone happy heads from AFR/short block from Texas Speed.
Ed
Yes, I realize, I'm talking about Torque, but correct me if I'm wrong but don't all those graphs we look at, even at the lower RPM's, the throttle is wide open.
The power I'm talking about is drivability power. I couldn't even if I wanted to run around with my foot mashed all the way down. All over town. No one seems to keep the mind what the cars real day to day use is!
I choose AFR 205's because my experience with rebuilding and modifying 2-strokes taught me some hard lessons that bigger ports are not always better.
I thought those smaller runners would produce more power with less throttle.
Then as always I have to go overboard and I'm having Tony port them to work better in a LS2 short block (which I intend to get from Texas Speed).
So there, I'm making everyone happy heads from AFR/short block from Texas Speed.
Ed
07-26-2009, 07:22 PM
#69
I just see all these PRC threads also and it just seems that they are always number one which I can understand versus other brands but against some of the other quality names out there your not gonna beat them 10 out of 10. 7 out of 10 is plausible not 10 of 10.
07-27-2009, 02:30 AM
#70
TSP is the #1 advertiser on this board and they offer the cheapest heads so a lot of people run them. I am not saying TSP produces bad products or anything but there are a lot of other companies out there who produce great products but do not advertise as much. People mostly want cheap and fast, TSP is great for that but that does not mean they make the best cylinder head. The best and cheap are rarely found in the same sentence. With that being said alot of people have achieved their goals with TSP products.
07-27-2009, 05:05 AM
#71
I have a genuine question.........
I have read the entire thread, and I was just wondering if anyone is actually going fast with these TSP heads? Put all the flow #'s and HP #'s aside and get down to brass tax. I know this is a touchy thread, so I am trying to be as tactful as possible. Is there anyone running say, low 9's with these heads?
I do have some PRC components in my motor, and had a great time dealing with John when I bought springs so this isn't a loaded question. Just want to know.
Jeremy
I have read the entire thread, and I was just wondering if anyone is actually going fast with these TSP heads? Put all the flow #'s and HP #'s aside and get down to brass tax. I know this is a touchy thread, so I am trying to be as tactful as possible. Is there anyone running say, low 9's with these heads?
I do have some PRC components in my motor, and had a great time dealing with John when I bought springs so this isn't a loaded question. Just want to know.
Jeremy
07-27-2009, 10:49 AM
#72
Wow some of you 'customer's are total idiots.
Competition is GREAT thing for us!
I think it's awesome anytime anyone posts a dyno comparision.
If your product is better come out and say so. Don't be scared. Call the competition out by name and be sure about your product.
Then the competition might go back and do their own comparison and either they are going to come up with the same results in which case hopefully it might inspire them to improve their product or maybe they come up with opposite results in which case post those up and over time we'll work out whose telling the truth or whose hiding something to fudge the results.
Over time this forces all suppliers to make better products or lower prices to compete which is GREAT for all of us. Yet most in this thread can't comprehend that, they rather just pay more and get less and never have anyone question anything. Morons, they are just shooting themselves in the foot.
So again thanks for posting the dyno results, please keep it up, and I encourage the competition to do the same thing.
And end all results posts like that one jack in the box commercial against burger king.
"If I am saying something that isn't true, do something about it!"
Competition is GREAT thing for us!
I think it's awesome anytime anyone posts a dyno comparision.
If your product is better come out and say so. Don't be scared. Call the competition out by name and be sure about your product.
Then the competition might go back and do their own comparison and either they are going to come up with the same results in which case hopefully it might inspire them to improve their product or maybe they come up with opposite results in which case post those up and over time we'll work out whose telling the truth or whose hiding something to fudge the results.
Over time this forces all suppliers to make better products or lower prices to compete which is GREAT for all of us. Yet most in this thread can't comprehend that, they rather just pay more and get less and never have anyone question anything. Morons, they are just shooting themselves in the foot.
So again thanks for posting the dyno results, please keep it up, and I encourage the competition to do the same thing.
And end all results posts like that one jack in the box commercial against burger king.
"If I am saying something that isn't true, do something about it!"
07-27-2009, 11:01 AM
#73
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I would really like to have either set of heads (CNC Afr 205 or CNC prc stg 2.5 5.3or tea heads for that matter) im still on stock 241's my cam size is in sig and would appear to work well with both of them...but for the money the 5.3's are hard to beat it seems. milled and gaskets to get around 11:5 compression would be nice gain esp with a FAST 90 on my setup. if only money were no object...lol im not going for the highest hp or track times i just enjoy driving the car.... saving money is great too! Hopeful Goal of 430+rwhp (adding 40 or so rwhp) with heads, intake, and ud pulley maybe injectors added to my setup and high 11's or consistant low 12's at the track...partly a problem with my 60ft lol im workin on it.
Last edited by Peetyz; 07-27-2009 at 11:07 AM.
07-27-2009, 11:43 AM
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I would really like to have either set of heads (CNC Afr 205 or CNC prc stg 2.5 5.3or tea heads for that matter) im still on stock 241's my cam size is in sig and would appear to work well with both of them...but for the money the 5.3's are hard to beat it seems. milled and gaskets to get around 11:5 compression would be nice gain esp with a FAST 90 on my setup. if only money were no object...lol im not going for the highest hp or track times i just enjoy driving the car.... saving money is great too! Hopeful Goal of 430+rwhp (adding 40 or so rwhp) with heads, intake, and ud pulley maybe injectors added to my setup and high 11's or consistant low 12's at the track...partly a problem with my 60ft lol im workin on it.
07-27-2009, 01:50 PM
#75
I have a genuine question.........
I have read the entire thread, and I was just wondering if anyone is actually going fast with these TSP heads? Put all the flow #'s and HP #'s aside and get down to brass tax. I know this is a touchy thread, so I am trying to be as tactful as possible. Is there anyone running say, low 9's with these heads?
I do have some PRC components in my motor, and had a great time dealing with John when I bought springs so this isn't a loaded question. Just want to know.
Jeremy
I have read the entire thread, and I was just wondering if anyone is actually going fast with these TSP heads? Put all the flow #'s and HP #'s aside and get down to brass tax. I know this is a touchy thread, so I am trying to be as tactful as possible. Is there anyone running say, low 9's with these heads?
I do have some PRC components in my motor, and had a great time dealing with John when I bought springs so this isn't a loaded question. Just want to know.
Jeremy
I have a set of the PRC 5.3s and I've been high 10s with stock displacement at full weight, naturally aspirated.
07-27-2009, 06:00 PM
#76
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Before I put in a 3:73 gears and moved from my 3500 stall to a 4400 stall I was at 435rwhp in an A4,but since adding the gears and bigger stall I'm at 426rwh,but my cam is bigger at 232/238..I think with a 6speed you should nave no probs..I have TSP stage 2.5 5.3 heads..I'm in Dayton too so if your ever up for it I'll take you check out my car
