So its time, what cam for 215 TFS heads...track car
12-26-2009, 12:46 AM
#41
Hi chrs1313:
Can I ask who is doing the Head and Cam install? You or a shop? More curiosity than anything, but it might help to know.
I know you are trying to learn and want to get it right. But, you have some some very knowledgeable cam experts giving you some solid advice.
I would work those worksheets and see what you learn. But, as Patrick G stated, if you want to hit the sweet spot..go too big, and you will lose low end torque and DCR.
Predator-Z, can you share publicly what you think? I know you like reverse split cams. I am just curious what you think.
To the OP, you are getting some good advice. My only comment is try to resist the urge to goo too big. I know that is hard, but I would take the great advice you are getting.
This application is over my head, so I am really curious how it works out.
It is a good thread to follow and many of us are learning something new.
Thanks, and good luck in your pursuit.
..WeathermanShawn..
Can I ask who is doing the Head and Cam install? You or a shop? More curiosity than anything, but it might help to know.
I know you are trying to learn and want to get it right. But, you have some some very knowledgeable cam experts giving you some solid advice.
I would work those worksheets and see what you learn. But, as Patrick G stated, if you want to hit the sweet spot..go too big, and you will lose low end torque and DCR.
Predator-Z, can you share publicly what you think? I know you like reverse split cams. I am just curious what you think.
To the OP, you are getting some good advice. My only comment is try to resist the urge to goo too big. I know that is hard, but I would take the great advice you are getting.
This application is over my head, so I am really curious how it works out.
It is a good thread to follow and many of us are learning something new.
Thanks, and good luck in your pursuit.
..WeathermanShawn..
this is Predator Z recommendation
It is a XE-R/XE (high lift)
Intake 3731R
Exhaust 3656R
Cam 242/246 .610, .595 111+3 LSA
0.050
242/246
111>LSA
108>ICL
13>IVO
49>IVC
57>EVO
9>EVC
114>ECL
22*overlap
the one i posted earlier
and i think i am going to go with the 239/243 .624/.624 111+3 LSA...pretty close to my g5x4 with a modern update
Why not just throw those TFS heads on your car with that proven little 230 cam that you have and if your not happy with the performace or it doesn't get you the time your after you could change it then I mean you have a good intake the only restriction I see is your stock heads but replacing them with a killer set of heads like the TFS 215's they will let your intake breathe and make your cam work better. I'm not an expert at this but your car is running damn stong your not far from your goals I think the heads will get you there if your set on changing cams though I would go with some thing the size of the G5x4 on some of the new lobes maybe xfi intake/xer exhuast lobes or on LSL lobes but with all of the great advice from PatrickG, PredatorZ and other's and the research your doing i'm sure the cam that you choose will be the right one, Good luck on your build.
and when i say work out as planned i mean hit some 10.teens
12-26-2009, 12:48 AM
#42
So when you going to trade me waterpumps rob?
i am also asking alot of questions for others that are reading and trying to gain some knowledge too...
i mean i know i can throw a trex/ms4/g5x4 and milled TFS heads and run great times, just wanted to get some opinions and gain some different views
i am also asking alot of questions for others that are reading and trying to gain some knowledge too...
i mean i know i can throw a trex/ms4/g5x4 and milled TFS heads and run great times, just wanted to get some opinions and gain some different views
12-26-2009, 08:32 AM
#43
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I know powershifting will get me a tiny bit...with a M12 trans and 390s I cant make it through the 1/8 in 3rd im sure if I could my 1/8 would be a little better...would like 410s and M6 gearing better for the strip
12-26-2009, 08:38 AM
#44
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cool so going with same came as mine huh even the lsa and icl
i had it cam doctored...it was ground about a degree or 2 bigger on both sides
the cam card read as follows and I installed it at 108 ICL degree wheel verified...oh and get some of these 3pc 3/8 manton pushrods...check out the diff in 5/16 11/32 and 3/8
heres a vid clip of 950 idle rpm
http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=MOV02610.flv
i had it cam doctored...it was ground about a degree or 2 bigger on both sides
the cam card read as follows and I installed it at 108 ICL degree wheel verified...oh and get some of these 3pc 3/8 manton pushrods...check out the diff in 5/16 11/32 and 3/8
heres a vid clip of 950 idle rpm
http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/g...t=MOV02610.flv
12-26-2009, 09:58 AM
#46
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Good heads like what you got now, won't need BIG cams to make them work properly or go the speed/et like you want them to. Smaller/tighter cams, matched with correct intake, headers, scr, etc.... will kick *** just as much imo. 
But the 239/243 choice is the spot on and the biggest that I would use/recommend if it was my deal.
But the 239/243 choice is the spot on and the biggest that I would use/recommend if it was my deal. 
12-26-2009, 08:09 PM
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I would run a 244 248 112+4 with 12:1 only because of how well I have seen it work, With 11.5:1 I would go less cam. We did a LS1 with those heads and a 238.242.112 cam it fell over at 6800, It come on very hard and then fell away just as quick we wish we used the 244 248 it would have worked better with the 12.2:1 comp we were using and still we had 30 deg of lead in it. I dont think you will see to much difference in most of the ones mentioned. I would go for hi rpm friendly lobes like LSL like Pat mentioned just to avoid valve float. Xe ex is a smart move. I would prob go tighter lsa to get ICL down and dont advance to much to make it hold on and keep ex duration up. Like 236 248 110.
12-26-2009, 09:41 PM
#50
Like I said earlier 239/251 111+3 will pull clean to 7000 rpm. If you dont want to run it that high than 239/243 will run great. All depends on your gearing and the rpm you will be turning at the end of the track. 239/251 might not be conventional but you would not be disappointed. More exhaust duration, more scavenging, clean intake charge great power band and over rev. The overlap is centered over TDC so it is neither exhaust nor intake biased.
(Hint Hint) Comp cams sells 3/8" magnum pushrods in several lengths for $110. No reason for exspensive p-rods.
(Hint Hint) Comp cams sells 3/8" magnum pushrods in several lengths for $110. No reason for exspensive p-rods.
Last edited by Nitroused383; 12-26-2009 at 09:50 PM.
12-27-2009, 10:31 AM
#53
i know i am tempted...what are the lobes for this cam again...larry are speed wants me to run a cam very similiar to that the Si6 it is a 235/240...but i got the donkey dick itch, and i think it will be worth a few hp being a track car mostly...i guess i will decide when the motor is on the stand...still got some time, gotta drop the trans today
12-29-2009, 11:23 AM
#56
Have something cut. if you really want to see what would work, I'd flow the heads with the intake attched, see where that peaks lift wise and aim to get the valve there as fast as possible then have the lift cut on the cam to hold it there for as long as possible.
If you're running an open header, it might be worth a try to flow the head with a pipe on the header as long as the primary's are, so that way you can get the real world look at the flow, then again, get the cam cut to work with that.
Do this, and you'll end up with the best possible cam you can. If it's track only, I'd deck the heads so your comp is up to 12 to 1 and just run race fuel. Cost of fuel isn't much in the overall scheme... and you'd pick up some by doing that.
I'll bet you do this.. and you're gonna find that a custom lobe will be your best fit, and the cam is gonna end up in the 244/252 range with about 580ish lift, and a good amount of overlap.
If you're running an open header, it might be worth a try to flow the head with a pipe on the header as long as the primary's are, so that way you can get the real world look at the flow, then again, get the cam cut to work with that.
Do this, and you'll end up with the best possible cam you can. If it's track only, I'd deck the heads so your comp is up to 12 to 1 and just run race fuel. Cost of fuel isn't much in the overall scheme... and you'd pick up some by doing that.
I'll bet you do this.. and you're gonna find that a custom lobe will be your best fit, and the cam is gonna end up in the 244/252 range with about 580ish lift, and a good amount of overlap.
12-29-2009, 12:41 PM
#57
Have something cut. if you really want to see what would work, I'd flow the heads with the intake attched, see where that peaks lift wise and aim to get the valve there as fast as possible then have the lift cut on the cam to hold it there for as long as possible.
If you're running an open header, it might be worth a try to flow the head with a pipe on the header as long as the primary's are, so that way you can get the real world look at the flow, then again, get the cam cut to work with that.
Do this, and you'll end up with the best possible cam you can. If it's track only, I'd deck the heads so your comp is up to 12 to 1 and just run race fuel. Cost of fuel isn't much in the overall scheme... and you'd pick up some by doing that.
I'll bet you do this.. and you're gonna find that a custom lobe will be your best fit, and the cam is gonna end up in the 244/252 range with about 580ish lift, and a good amount of overlap.
If you're running an open header, it might be worth a try to flow the head with a pipe on the header as long as the primary's are, so that way you can get the real world look at the flow, then again, get the cam cut to work with that.
Do this, and you'll end up with the best possible cam you can. If it's track only, I'd deck the heads so your comp is up to 12 to 1 and just run race fuel. Cost of fuel isn't much in the overall scheme... and you'd pick up some by doing that.
I'll bet you do this.. and you're gonna find that a custom lobe will be your best fit, and the cam is gonna end up in the 244/252 range with about 580ish lift, and a good amount of overlap.
what i mean is if you take the flow from one port it is not going to be linear when all 8 ports are flowing, so the results of the one port are not correct...at 28”of H20 the one port is going to have basically no restriction from the intake…
I feel the flow through one port will be inflated over the rear world when all 8 cyclinders are pulling…unless the intake and heads are flowed differently…
Also I am surprised by the lift( you better not look at a MS4 cam
), do you think the heads are goning to flatline near .580 lift…also wouldn’t it be better to push that lift higher unless heads really become turbulent at flows over their threshold and flow is greatly affected…what I am think is similar to why you shift 400 rpms past peak…Chris
12-29-2009, 01:10 PM
#58
The intake flowign with all 8 cyl's will probably have an effect... but I'd bolt the intake on the head and then flow a couple cyl's, they'll be close, but the main thing you will see, is that the intake will only flow X amount, meaning the head can only flow x amount. Going way past the max flow point of the intake and head is only beating on the valvetrain... people go past that point so that they can have 2 times that the valve is at that lift, I think it would be better to slam it to that point asap and hang it there for as long as you can.
exhaust would be easy enough... jsut put a pipe with the immediate bend and a couple other small bends in it the average length of your header and see what that does to the exhaust flow.
fwiw, look at the cam limitations of a super stock car, and look at what those guys run for a camshaft.. what I'm talking about would be similar.
I've seen the lift that some of the cams have on them... that dosn't mean it's right though. The new aggressive lobes, that's fine, get the valve up and lifted quickly, but don't go so far with the lift past where optimal flow is, I'd stop when it peaks and hold it there, I think the results would be better.
fwiw, a ported 90mm intake flows about 285, I'm sure the 92 is probably close to the 300 mark. But that being said.. if the intake will only flow 285, then going past that point, is just pushing the valve farther then you have to, the gains aren't going to be there. Just get the valve there, and hold it there.
Overlap and the duration, along with the amount of time you can get the valve open at max flow will get you farther then pushing the valves to a poitn of flow on a head that is past what the intake can do.
Give it a try, you can always put a cam in that everyone and their brother runs and go the same speed they are, but if you want to try to go faster, then you're going to have to do something different.
exhaust would be easy enough... jsut put a pipe with the immediate bend and a couple other small bends in it the average length of your header and see what that does to the exhaust flow.
fwiw, look at the cam limitations of a super stock car, and look at what those guys run for a camshaft.. what I'm talking about would be similar.
I've seen the lift that some of the cams have on them... that dosn't mean it's right though. The new aggressive lobes, that's fine, get the valve up and lifted quickly, but don't go so far with the lift past where optimal flow is, I'd stop when it peaks and hold it there, I think the results would be better.
fwiw, a ported 90mm intake flows about 285, I'm sure the 92 is probably close to the 300 mark. But that being said.. if the intake will only flow 285, then going past that point, is just pushing the valve farther then you have to, the gains aren't going to be there. Just get the valve there, and hold it there.
Overlap and the duration, along with the amount of time you can get the valve open at max flow will get you farther then pushing the valves to a poitn of flow on a head that is past what the intake can do.
Give it a try, you can always put a cam in that everyone and their brother runs and go the same speed they are, but if you want to try to go faster, then you're going to have to do something different.
12-29-2009, 02:15 PM
#59
Using the 239/243 .624/.624 111LSA +4 cam as an example, you will need to use the duration at .006 which is 289/293. With a static compression ratio of 11.54:1, your DCR would be 8.66:1.
Please notice that nowhere in my recommendation did a specific target DCR enter the conversation. This is because selecting the proper valve events is paramount. The resultant DCR is mostly a sanity check. 8.66:1 is fine for 91/93 octane.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
12-29-2009, 03:14 PM
#60
You need to use duration at .006" to come up with DCR, not duration at .050".
Using the 239/243 .624/.624 111LSA +4 cam as an example, you will need to use the duration at .006 which is 289/293. With a static compression ratio of 11.54:1, your DCR would be 8.66:1.
Please notice that nowhere in my recommendation did a specific target DCR enter the conversation. This is because selecting the proper valve events is paramount. The resultant DCR is mostly a sanity check. 8.66:1 is fine for 91/93 octane.
Using the 239/243 .624/.624 111LSA +4 cam as an example, you will need to use the duration at .006 which is 289/293. With a static compression ratio of 11.54:1, your DCR would be 8.66:1.
Please notice that nowhere in my recommendation did a specific target DCR enter the conversation. This is because selecting the proper valve events is paramount. The resultant DCR is mostly a sanity check. 8.66:1 is fine for 91/93 octane.