Spun a cam bearing. Block trashed?
05-30-2016, 08:20 PM
#41
Nobody can ever say this "my engine runs better when its more filthy". mechanical parts need to be clean; do everything you can to ensure this.
end of thread.
05-30-2016, 09:07 PM
#42
i go out of my way to use small words, so that i will not sound smart, and i even act kind of ditzy/head in the clouds on purpose to help others feel superior to me. People with forum superiority complex issues usually take this as a sign of weakness and attack. Others with good reading comprehension realize my advice is superior to the popular/community point of view, and related understanding of the infinitely small that comes with a medical point of view. You see an open engine; i see an open patient.
Nobody can ever say this "my engine runs better when its more filthy". Mechanical parts need to be clean; do everything you can to ensure this.
End of thread.
Nobody can ever say this "my engine runs better when its more filthy". Mechanical parts need to be clean; do everything you can to ensure this.
End of thread.
05-30-2016, 10:36 PM
#45
the reason some shops may automatically assume trashed block is perhaps because after building hundreds or thousands of engines over the years they have begun to recognize and associated higher rate of failure of rebuilt engines that previously had bearing/metal material released into the lubricative orifices of the engine.
Even a thoroughly "cleaned" engine, once it has had metal materials distributed throughout, can not truly be trusted. If the engine is important or rare the build can be attempted of course; but if the engine is not unique there is no excuse not to find a clean one to start with from a running vehicle.
Even a thoroughly "cleaned" engine, once it has had metal materials distributed throughout, can not truly be trusted. If the engine is important or rare the build can be attempted of course; but if the engine is not unique there is no excuse not to find a clean one to start with from a running vehicle.
there are different kinds of debris. Sludge and oil/carbon type of buildup presents one kind of problem for an orifice, but can also be cleaned/solvated over time through oil changes. Metal particulate engaged or impregnated into the block can not be, and may dislodge at any time causing a problem down the road. And there are other compounds which form or are ingested by the engine which pose similar threats, particulate which may not be metal, but also is not solvent compatible either, and might stick to parts.
For example, Imagine I run an engine brand new from the factory for 30,000~ miles without an air filter. Imagine what that would do to the air path, let alone the oil quality over that time. Only 30k on the clock, is going to sound good, run good, but guess what? that engine can never be reliable, it should never be used for a high performance build thereafter, and no amount of general cleaning practice will ever bring it back to the performance world.
So there are some situations of filth and poor maintenance/cleaning practices which are unforgivable. And others which may be cleared up.
For example, Imagine I run an engine brand new from the factory for 30,000~ miles without an air filter. Imagine what that would do to the air path, let alone the oil quality over that time. Only 30k on the clock, is going to sound good, run good, but guess what? that engine can never be reliable, it should never be used for a high performance build thereafter, and no amount of general cleaning practice will ever bring it back to the performance world.
So there are some situations of filth and poor maintenance/cleaning practices which are unforgivable. And others which may be cleared up.
Oh we arn't going there- cleaning during assembly is a whole other issue which I recommend people avoid all together by using a stock, unopened engine. My recommendations are towards novices with daily drivers. In case you are wondering where I am coming from. People that want 200k from their engines.
Ok, same here. I never said don't do it. I said only that "if the motor is not unique or rare it would be a better idea to find one in good running shape than to use one with quesitonable past" or something to that effect, which still applies/stands and makes perfect sense, and is good advice for those seeking reliable 200k daily drivers.
So this is where we are. What does it take to ruin a block. I said if you run an engine with 30k with no air filter, it will be ruined. Alot of machine shops will agree. Some will not. Some would never say never, and choose to try and clean and fix a block no matter what. I mean they are made of metal, and we have welders and sanders and ****, so why not? My words of advice again: directed towards people with daily drivers that want 200k. You dont want a machine shop doing "Extra cleaning work" to get your engine cleaned up for 100 different reasons that range from: they might not do it right (read where you wrote: proper machine shop) all the way to: they cleaned it fine at first but then left a mess after their 'proper' machine work. The less a machine shop needs to do to prep a block the better, thus finding additional non-rare, good running OEM engines to rebuild over trashed/seized/junk is still a good idea regardless of what you think of the 17 year old interns ability to clean a block at the local machine shop.
This is a whole other issue. Lack of proper cleanliness... not necessarily cleaning procedure, is a very common problem associated with building engines. This problem is understated in the V8 crowd presumably because we are in America and have many more machine shops dedicated to this platform. In the 4 and 6 cylinder/Japanese engine world, the problem is much worse. Nearly every rebuilt 4-cylinder sr20det for example has a problem before it reaches 20k miles. The level of attention to detail and cleanliness required is off the charts. And typically the same machine shops that handle the V8 engines will try this particular 4-cylinder and have all of these problems/issues with the build, using the same exact procedure and cleanliness they use for their V8 counterparts. Which tells me that the V8 engines are being assembled in sub-par conditions, they are just able to tolerate it longer for whatever reason (larger clearances?)
If you run an engine without an air filter (I like this example) it will ingest many compounds that are both NON metallic and very INERT. Such as pollen and fungus spores. These compounds, some of which science still doesn't know what they are consisting of, being so inert, will stick to parts and cause clogs, leading to metallic debris/failure as passages dry up, and are VERY difficult to clean, you can scrub and torch them without much result other than a black sticky mess lump left behind on the metal surface. There is also the issue of sand/grit/silica, which will pit aluminum parts and impregnate itself all through the airpath, making every components of the engine (head, deck, piston, valve) into useless trash. You cannot "clean" through a pitted, ruined deck. Cleaning has limitations. There are good answers for alot of the un-cleanable areas (shave the deck/head, change the pistons/valves) but there is still the issue of what these un-cleanable particulate have done inside the oiling orifices of the engine. You cant "shave" the space between the first and second rod bearings where non-metallic inert compounds have decided to live. The machine shop, even the best one, isnt going to scope every oil galley looking for bits of grit that are hanging around. High temperature might even make the problem worse by facilitating side reactions with other available biological compounds, some of which bond to metal easily.
I appreciate this, its very important to clean thoroughly, but the problem is understated and the solution is over-stated. All I am really saying is, you can't be too careful, and, the less you leave in the hands of others (i.e. machine shop cleaning details) the better.
Ok, same here. I never said don't do it. I said only that "if the motor is not unique or rare it would be a better idea to find one in good running shape than to use one with quesitonable past" or something to that effect, which still applies/stands and makes perfect sense, and is good advice for those seeking reliable 200k daily drivers.
So this is where we are. What does it take to ruin a block. I said if you run an engine with 30k with no air filter, it will be ruined. Alot of machine shops will agree. Some will not. Some would never say never, and choose to try and clean and fix a block no matter what. I mean they are made of metal, and we have welders and sanders and ****, so why not? My words of advice again: directed towards people with daily drivers that want 200k. You dont want a machine shop doing "Extra cleaning work" to get your engine cleaned up for 100 different reasons that range from: they might not do it right (read where you wrote: proper machine shop) all the way to: they cleaned it fine at first but then left a mess after their 'proper' machine work. The less a machine shop needs to do to prep a block the better, thus finding additional non-rare, good running OEM engines to rebuild over trashed/seized/junk is still a good idea regardless of what you think of the 17 year old interns ability to clean a block at the local machine shop.
This is a whole other issue. Lack of proper cleanliness... not necessarily cleaning procedure, is a very common problem associated with building engines. This problem is understated in the V8 crowd presumably because we are in America and have many more machine shops dedicated to this platform. In the 4 and 6 cylinder/Japanese engine world, the problem is much worse. Nearly every rebuilt 4-cylinder sr20det for example has a problem before it reaches 20k miles. The level of attention to detail and cleanliness required is off the charts. And typically the same machine shops that handle the V8 engines will try this particular 4-cylinder and have all of these problems/issues with the build, using the same exact procedure and cleanliness they use for their V8 counterparts. Which tells me that the V8 engines are being assembled in sub-par conditions, they are just able to tolerate it longer for whatever reason (larger clearances?)
If you run an engine without an air filter (I like this example) it will ingest many compounds that are both NON metallic and very INERT. Such as pollen and fungus spores. These compounds, some of which science still doesn't know what they are consisting of, being so inert, will stick to parts and cause clogs, leading to metallic debris/failure as passages dry up, and are VERY difficult to clean, you can scrub and torch them without much result other than a black sticky mess lump left behind on the metal surface. There is also the issue of sand/grit/silica, which will pit aluminum parts and impregnate itself all through the airpath, making every components of the engine (head, deck, piston, valve) into useless trash. You cannot "clean" through a pitted, ruined deck. Cleaning has limitations. There are good answers for alot of the un-cleanable areas (shave the deck/head, change the pistons/valves) but there is still the issue of what these un-cleanable particulate have done inside the oiling orifices of the engine. You cant "shave" the space between the first and second rod bearings where non-metallic inert compounds have decided to live. The machine shop, even the best one, isnt going to scope every oil galley looking for bits of grit that are hanging around. High temperature might even make the problem worse by facilitating side reactions with other available biological compounds, some of which bond to metal easily.
I appreciate this, its very important to clean thoroughly, but the problem is understated and the solution is over-stated. All I am really saying is, you can't be too careful, and, the less you leave in the hands of others (i.e. machine shop cleaning details) the better.
none of this has anything to do with a block thats been trashed by abuse, like the no air filter situation. I never said used blocks are bad- that is the only kind of block I've ever used. I only got for GOOD RUNNING blocks, engines which are CURRENTLY in USE, they have 50k or 100k on the clock, the oil looks clean, smells clean, engine isn't making any noise, run fine, PERFECT candidate for a high performance rebuild.
If you find an engine in the scrap yard, I give it a 50/50 general chance of success regardless of how careful you are. If you collect data and compare salvage yard blocks vs good running blocks rebuilt you will see a higher rate of failure in the blocks with questionable backgrounds. It is simply statistics at work here.
Call BS all you want thats what the internet is for. Plenty of "crazy people" Over the years (Look through my telescope! Look through my microscope!) almost got lynched/stoned to death for their outrageous ideas which turned out to be good ones.
If you find an engine in the scrap yard, I give it a 50/50 general chance of success regardless of how careful you are. If you collect data and compare salvage yard blocks vs good running blocks rebuilt you will see a higher rate of failure in the blocks with questionable backgrounds. It is simply statistics at work here.
Call BS all you want thats what the internet is for. Plenty of "crazy people" Over the years (Look through my telescope! Look through my microscope!) almost got lynched/stoned to death for their outrageous ideas which turned out to be good ones.
every expensive engine for ultra-high performance OEM vehicles like the GT-R and ferrari is always built in a clean room. If the cost of assembly < failure rate cost there are always some limitation to the steps taken to ensure reliability (if the cost of some % additional failures is less than the cost to protect better from those failures then I think you know what happens). Also, Nissan and Toyota engines, even in the 80's, were built to very strict high tolerance standards, the rod bearing is 0.0008"-0.0013" for example using 5W-30 and they have OEM grades for bearings that range in the 0.000X place for rebuilding available.
lol at "slapped together" I am sure even FORD has taken measures to improve the cleanliness of their facility where engines are assembled. I'd be surprised if someone from ford doesn't jump out of the bushes with a video of such a place (looks around)
lol at "slapped together" I am sure even FORD has taken measures to improve the cleanliness of their facility where engines are assembled. I'd be surprised if someone from ford doesn't jump out of the bushes with a video of such a place (looks around)
05-30-2016, 10:41 PM
#46
Ive been preaching NOT to rebuild engines, NOT to open engines. Where does it say I am telling anyone to rebuild their engine unnecessarily? You obviously cannot read well, that is why you must skip all my posts. lrn2engrish
You may not have much experience with small displacement engines, but I do. A tiny grain of sand will clog an oil passage in a nissan 2.0L engine and cause a meltdown, trash the block. The same goes for a bit sludge buildup or any other obstruction. It is very common, huge problem in the sr20det community for example. These are lessons people learn the hard way, assemble and then failure shortly after using the same procedure they would use to build a V8 which often has less trouble with debris for whatever reason (clearances?). That doesn't mean throw caution to the wind just because you are using a larger engine; it means that **** HAPPENS and you should do everything you can to prevent it.
My post emphasis is on using a clean engine to start with if it is available; a good, solid piece of advice that nobody can argue with. Mileage isnt a factor; it is cleanliness.
You may not have much experience with small displacement engines, but I do. A tiny grain of sand will clog an oil passage in a nissan 2.0L engine and cause a meltdown, trash the block. The same goes for a bit sludge buildup or any other obstruction. It is very common, huge problem in the sr20det community for example. These are lessons people learn the hard way, assemble and then failure shortly after using the same procedure they would use to build a V8 which often has less trouble with debris for whatever reason (clearances?). That doesn't mean throw caution to the wind just because you are using a larger engine; it means that **** HAPPENS and you should do everything you can to prevent it.
My post emphasis is on using a clean engine to start with if it is available; a good, solid piece of advice that nobody can argue with. Mileage isnt a factor; it is cleanliness.
Not that it matters but I have plenty of experience with domestic, imports, as well as exotics.
Try again!!!
06-03-2016, 04:28 AM
#51
To those who think my advice is poor: I think its funny that my advice to use mostly stock engines in daily drivers is "poor" and that keeping an engine cleaner is "poor advice". Try pouring a cup of dirt into your engine and see what happens if you don't like my advice to keep it clean as possible.
Nobody in their right mind would turn down a clean room-build. If you had the option at no additional cost, there is absolutely no down side to building a cleaner engine.
Last, if I made a chart with the Y-axis labelled % total failure and the X-axis labelled total number of miles, then plotted the lifespan of several engines: one with no filtration, one with just an oil filter, one with air/oil filters, which one do you think would go the most miles? If I then added an additional subset of engines: ones which have been assembled cleanly from previously clean running examples, vs engines which are not assembled cleanly or from filthy prior example, what do you think that would look like on paper? You can hate me all you want; you can't disagree with the statistics that filthy engines do not last as long, whether its organic or metallic filth, they have an affect on lifespan. An engine spends its days hurtling towards the filth, as every combustion event and every breath brings in more. It is the time between its cleanest assembly, and filthiest last moments that we are measuring in mileage, aside from catastrophic failure.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 06-03-2016 at 04:40 AM.
06-03-2016, 04:38 AM
#52
see this is a shot at me. The IAC is just a hole. You dont need one for the engine to run correctly. We ran plenty of engines in the 60's and 70's without IAC motors. there are plenty of other ways to control idle and affect idle speed. I am not suggesting anybody run without an IAC. I am not sure what YOU think an IAC is for but its just one extra tool for controlling an engine to perform the way you want it to. And everybody has a different idea about that. BTW what word or words that I typed makes you think I dont understand how anything works? I'd like to see it so I can clear up any confusion. I understand there is going to confusion as words translate differently around the world.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 06-03-2016 at 04:44 AM.
06-03-2016, 04:57 AM
#53
I really like what you did, bolding all the important info. I see nothing wrong in any of that soup there, its all good soup to save someone a headache. I am sorry for the angry remark but you have to put yourself in my shoes, I am the martyr here getting stoned by the entire forum so some defensive reflex is instinctive. I keep forgetting that I do it to myself on purpose, if for no other reason than to train/practice these situations I fabricate and attempt control.
To those who think my advice is poor: I think its funny that my advice to use mostly stock engines in daily drivers is "poor" and that keeping an engine cleaner is "poor advice". Try pouring a cup of dirt into your engine and see what happens if you don't like my advice to keep it clean as possible.
Nobody in their right mind would turn down a clean room-build. If you had the option at no additional cost, there is absolutely no down side to building a cleaner engine.
Last, if I made a chart with the Y-axis labelled % total failure and the X-axis labelled total number of miles, then plotted the lifespan of several engines: one with no filtration, one with just an oil filter, one with air/oil filters, which one do you think would go the most miles? If I then added an additional subset of engines: ones which have been assembled cleanly from previously clean running examples, vs engines which are not assembled cleanly or from filthy prior example, what do you think that would look like on paper? You can hate me all you want; you can't disagree with the statistics that filthy engines do not last as long, whether its organic or metallic filth, they have an affect on lifespan. An engine spends its days hurtling towards the filth, as every combustion event and every breath brings in more. It is the time between its cleanest assembly, and filthiest last moments that we are measuring in mileage, aside from catastrophic failure.
To those who think my advice is poor: I think its funny that my advice to use mostly stock engines in daily drivers is "poor" and that keeping an engine cleaner is "poor advice". Try pouring a cup of dirt into your engine and see what happens if you don't like my advice to keep it clean as possible.
Nobody in their right mind would turn down a clean room-build. If you had the option at no additional cost, there is absolutely no down side to building a cleaner engine.
Last, if I made a chart with the Y-axis labelled % total failure and the X-axis labelled total number of miles, then plotted the lifespan of several engines: one with no filtration, one with just an oil filter, one with air/oil filters, which one do you think would go the most miles? If I then added an additional subset of engines: ones which have been assembled cleanly from previously clean running examples, vs engines which are not assembled cleanly or from filthy prior example, what do you think that would look like on paper? You can hate me all you want; you can't disagree with the statistics that filthy engines do not last as long, whether its organic or metallic filth, they have an affect on lifespan. An engine spends its days hurtling towards the filth, as every combustion event and every breath brings in more. It is the time between its cleanest assembly, and filthiest last moments that we are measuring in mileage, aside from catastrophic failure.
see this is a shot at me. The IAC is just a hole. You dont need one for the engine to run correctly. We ran plenty of engines in the 60's and 70's without IAC motors. there are plenty of other ways to control idle and affect idle speed. I am not sure what YOU think an IAC is for but its just one extra tool for controlling an engine to perform the way you want it to. And everybody has a different idea about that. BTW what word or words that I typed makes you think I dont understand how anything works? I'd like to see it so I can clear up any confusion. I understand there is going to confusion as words translate differently around the world.
coming from the guy washing his cam in the driveway. One of these days you learn how to make a valid point and stay on topic. And what's this WE BS in the 60's and 70's? Your profile says your 33...
Don't you have a nissan and a pack of crayons to play with?
06-03-2016, 11:55 AM
#55
Yes there is crayon all over that thing. Some of it is dripping on the ground due to the underhood temps. I leave a small trail of rainbow colors everywhere I go. You can think of me a mythical creature if you want. I build cars now mainly to have fun then turn a profit and build another. The 240sx chassis is good for that because there are only 2000~ of them produced in that year, so it is very rare.
Washed my first camshaft in my friends driveway when I was 15 or 16 years old, before I knew anything about cleanliness or engine building. I was just doing what I was told. I still wash em like that, nothing wrong with it, but use gloves to prevent contact with human skin is the biggest difference these days. I am going to make that chart I talked about earlier when I get the urge to play with stats again. I am a math tutor for my college among other teaching assistant duties so I dont always feel like playing with numbers when I have spare time.
Some stats for the 2.0L engine above. They cost roughly $2500 complete the way you see it, minus paint, that one has 192,000 miles and is capable of 380rwhp with an upgraded turbocharger on a stock cast piston the way it sits, and has been going this way for 20 years, as it is from a 1998 Nissan Silvia. The factory turbo supports around 250rwhp for reference, making any 240sx instantly into a solid 13 second vehicle without anything besides one of these stock engines from nose to tail. The vehicle weight of 2800lbs and stock exhaust makes it a surprisingly fast toy that doesn't emit the slightest sound as it rips away unexpectedly. Parts are extremely cheap, and I have never had a failure either in any of the 'big' parts (even the original starter) despite having a stockpile of replacements just in case. The engine comes out in 2-3 hours and actually weighs a little more than an LSx does, despite being aluminum block. The stand-alone computer to control it can be found for as low as $350 for maf version which will support up to 450rwhp. I have less than $8000 invested in my potentially 11 second, 132mph trap, pump gas daily driver, I share these figures only to show how affordable this platform is, and that a profit is possible while also driving a fun car, even if its just a tiny profit, I wish to encourage good mechanics to join the 240sx community we need more people who care about their aging car, almost antiques. This would be the 15~th time I have done this particular sr20 style build, the white one pictured is actually the first one I ever purchased with an sr20 already installed, albeit poorly maintained (I have had it out and washed it thoroughly thus the low price I guess), if that shows you how scarce these cars are (more difficult/expensive to find with an original engine) getting. Eventually got into trouble with the dept homeland security about importing cars when my tastes included an S15 Silvia
, so lets just leave that there and say I went back to school, and temporarily gave up on the import/car business.
And you bet a penny dollar that if a rebuild does need to happen, somewhere between 200-250k if I still have the car, it will happen while the engine is still running just fine. I won't wait for it to spit bearing material or show signs of knock before finally doing the job, that would be a mistake, and is the heart of the message I am leaving in this thread.
here a another of the similar build, about 7 cars ago. At the time I was promoting the shop I was affiliated with and tuning cars for anyone, and in-house projects.
http://s9.photobucket.com/user/kingt...7m3ni.mp4.html
Its a video maybe from 10 years ago
Today we are looking for more than 400 horses from OEM engines and I think the 5.3L is the better deal from what I keep hearing. I think the 5.3 is joecar approved fwicr.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 06-03-2016 at 05:53 PM.
06-03-2016, 04:13 PM
#57
see this is a shot at me. The IAC is just a hole. You dont need one for the engine to run correctly. We ran plenty of engines in the 60's and 70's without IAC motors. there are plenty of other ways to control idle and affect idle speed. I am not suggesting anybody run without an IAC. I am not sure what YOU think an IAC is for but its just one extra tool for controlling an engine to perform the way you want it to. And everybody has a different idea about that. BTW what word or words that I typed makes you think I dont understand how anything works? I'd like to see it so I can clear up any confusion. I understand there is going to confusion as words translate differently around the world.
And yes, it's possible to idle an engine in steady state without an IAC or any form of airflow manipulation. You can also use ignition timing modulation and/or fuel metering. Carbureted cars without computer controls used an idle circuit which used adjustable fuel metering. But it's not an optimal method. Nor is using just spark timing. Manipulating airflow to maintain constant running airflow is better. And, in the case of the LS, using fuel, airflow and spark together is the best method if you know how to manipulate them all correctly.
06-03-2016, 05:39 PM
#58
What credibility is it that I have (you think that in my mind I am trying to attain credibility? To save other people's engines perhaps?) that you think I need to protect?
Last edited by kingtal0n; 06-03-2016 at 05:44 PM.
06-04-2016, 09:04 AM
#59
Trying to argue about it isn't making you look any smarter. Give it up already!
