Started ripped off of block- took a piece with it
05-21-2011, 08:53 PM
#1
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Started ripped off of block- took a piece with it Just finished a head swap & unplugged the coil packs and pulled the fuses for the injectors and the fuel pump to prime the engine with the starter. Cranked for maybe 2 seconds and it felt like the motor seized up. No more crank after that. Turned the motor over by hand and felt resistance.
Started looking around and found a 5-6 inch crack in the bottom of the oil pan and the starter ripped off the block....taking a chunk of the block with it. Pulled the heads and looks like the intake valve on cylinder number 1 tapped the piston, not very bad as the valve looks good and just a minor ding in the top of the piston. With the heads off the motor turns over fine, all pistons moving freely.
Any thoughts on what could have caused the starter to rip off a chunk of the block? I'd have expected the starter to go to pieces before ripping itself out of the block. Also, no clue as to where this crack in the oil pan could have come from...
Started looking around and found a 5-6 inch crack in the bottom of the oil pan and the starter ripped off the block....taking a chunk of the block with it. Pulled the heads and looks like the intake valve on cylinder number 1 tapped the piston, not very bad as the valve looks good and just a minor ding in the top of the piston. With the heads off the motor turns over fine, all pistons moving freely.
Any thoughts on what could have caused the starter to rip off a chunk of the block? I'd have expected the starter to go to pieces before ripping itself out of the block. Also, no clue as to where this crack in the oil pan could have come from...
05-21-2011, 09:12 PM
#2
Sounds like you had the cam timed wrong and it caused the valves to hit the pistons causing the crank to stop rotating which caused the GEAR REDUCTION INSANO starter to break off but not before cracking the block and oil pan. Also very possible you had coolant leak into a cylinder hydroing the engine with same results.
The LS1 starter is a poor design and can cause INSANE damage to the aluminum block. I woooood be extremely concerned about the cracked oil pan.......that means usually means the block is extremely damaged.
When doing a head cam swap its always best to spin the engine over by hand slowly the be sure everything is timed right and no cylinders are full of collant from a poor head gasket install or a mistake.
Also you could use a updated starter that won't break off the starter mounting BUT it will still break the block if it hydros, the starter has too much mechcanical advantage because of the gear reduction design.
Good Luck
The LS1 starter is a poor design and can cause INSANE damage to the aluminum block. I woooood be extremely concerned about the cracked oil pan.......that means usually means the block is extremely damaged.
When doing a head cam swap its always best to spin the engine over by hand slowly the be sure everything is timed right and no cylinders are full of collant from a poor head gasket install or a mistake.
Also you could use a updated starter that won't break off the starter mounting BUT it will still break the block if it hydros, the starter has too much mechcanical advantage because of the gear reduction design.
Good Luck
05-21-2011, 09:23 PM
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How would the starter have cracked the oil pan? The starter was still up along the header, the oil pan was cracked at the bottom. I'm puzzled.
Any possible way to get through this without a new block (assuming the starter mounting piece is the only thing that took a hit)?
Any possible way to get through this without a new block (assuming the starter mounting piece is the only thing that took a hit)?
05-21-2011, 09:36 PM
#6
Because the block is DAMAGED BADLY....it cracks the oil pan as it breaks apart. Pull it off and start loking around.... seriously from here it seems like you have a ruined block but hope for the best. Look carefully at the block where the pan is cracked. See if it looks bent or slipt etc. Take a picture of this damage its easier than guessing . Also possible something broke off and puched the oil pan from inside. Time to start tearing down.
Aluminum is weak, the steel crank turning is much stronger and with the gear reduction starter turning that crank if anything tries to stop it the ALUMUNUM block looses the battle.
This is the reason I want to put a safety cut in the output shaft of my starter, so if it ever encounters a hydro situation etc it will simply break the starter output shaft off.
Every time i read one of these threads i'mstill amazed the aftermarket hasn't jumped on this. Maybe i should develope something but unfortuneatly most people don't understand what could happen because of this crazy gear reduction starter design. The older style starter woooood have just stopped turning.
Also if this was a cast iron block LQ9 etc it woooooodn't happen because the block is stronger than the starter.
The Aluminum LS1 engine needs a starter that won't ruin the block if coolant gets in a cylinder etc. GM REALLY dropped the ball on this, honestly its one of the worse engineeering mistakes i've ever seen. I'll bet I could find 100's of threads similar to this!
Aluminum is weak, the steel crank turning is much stronger and with the gear reduction starter turning that crank if anything tries to stop it the ALUMUNUM block looses the battle.
This is the reason I want to put a safety cut in the output shaft of my starter, so if it ever encounters a hydro situation etc it will simply break the starter output shaft off.
Every time i read one of these threads i'mstill amazed the aftermarket hasn't jumped on this. Maybe i should develope something but unfortuneatly most people don't understand what could happen because of this crazy gear reduction starter design. The older style starter woooood have just stopped turning.
Also if this was a cast iron block LQ9 etc it woooooodn't happen because the block is stronger than the starter.
The Aluminum LS1 engine needs a starter that won't ruin the block if coolant gets in a cylinder etc. GM REALLY dropped the ball on this, honestly its one of the worse engineeering mistakes i've ever seen. I'll bet I could find 100's of threads similar to this!
Last edited by O2Form; 05-21-2011 at 10:02 PM.
05-22-2011, 02:14 AM
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Pull the engine out and tear it down to do a full inspection on the block and internals. Better safe than sorry I would say. You might be able to get away cheap and not have to do a full short block.
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05-22-2011, 08:23 AM
#9
I have an '01 C5 short block with LS6 block casting in NJ if you're in a hurry. Still has the C5 oil pan installed, I just removed the heads and used them on another project.
It has less than 20K miles and was removed at a Chevy dealer for oil consumption complaint. I paid the core charge and got the engine as a long block assembly.
Leakdown test was run at 100psig while I watched, lowest cylinder was 94% and ambient temps were in the ~30degF range w/ snow falling...shop heat was off. My presumption is that the oil consumption was likely either a valve seal defect or the ring flutter issue under some driving conditions. I have it bagged up and sprayed w/ Pennzoil storage fogging oil.
It has less than 20K miles and was removed at a Chevy dealer for oil consumption complaint. I paid the core charge and got the engine as a long block assembly.
Leakdown test was run at 100psig while I watched, lowest cylinder was 94% and ambient temps were in the ~30degF range w/ snow falling...shop heat was off. My presumption is that the oil consumption was likely either a valve seal defect or the ring flutter issue under some driving conditions. I have it bagged up and sprayed w/ Pennzoil storage fogging oil.
05-22-2011, 09:40 AM
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I've got it down to the short block right now and I'll be pulling the rest as soon as I have some time. I am pretty much figuring on a new block.
Any suggestions on where to start looking for a cheap used LQ9?
Any suggestions on where to start looking for a cheap used LQ9?
05-22-2011, 01:31 PM
#14
I had this same thing happen, but with no broken block. Just my short starter mount broke off the starter and that broke my starter mount off the block. I had a welder come to my house, get under the car and weld it back onto the block. Started mounted back up and its been fine for like a year now.
He had a hard time reaching it with the engine still in the car but he got it. If you're taking the motor out, it'll be an easy weld job.
.
He had a hard time reaching it with the engine still in the car but he got it. If you're taking the motor out, it'll be an easy weld job.
.
Last edited by LS6427; 05-22-2011 at 01:39 PM.
05-22-2011, 02:09 PM
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There are some really good machinists out there. Don't give up hope that the block could be salvageable. With the block out of the car it might be able to be fixed. Disassemble take lots of pics and hit up the ls builders to see if they think it can be fixed. You might be able to get the block fixed and just get a set of new pistons and do a simple overhaul.
05-22-2011, 03:16 PM
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Sounds to me like you had more then one thing wrong here......
cam timing or you didnt check your head cc's or piston to valve clear
also i have a hard time thinking the a cam that is out of time would break the starter and block. most of the time when stuff like this go's down its the fact it hydro locked. but i dunno it could have been the timing.
if i was you the heads would get cced and piston to valve would be checked then a new valve or valves
cam timing or you didnt check your head cc's or piston to valve clear
also i have a hard time thinking the a cam that is out of time would break the starter and block. most of the time when stuff like this go's down its the fact it hydro locked. but i dunno it could have been the timing.
if i was you the heads would get cced and piston to valve would be checked then a new valve or valves
05-23-2011, 08:53 AM
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Right now the plan is to find an iron block, and have everything checked, assembled and installed by a shop. Unfortunately, finances are gonna hold that process up for a few months. I'll be slowly tearing it down as I have spare time and documenting with pics.
05-23-2011, 09:56 AM
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same thing happened to me due to a stuck open injector flooding the engine causing the engine to stop cranking. I broke one of the starter tabs but did not have the same damage to my pan as you. so far it seems i have gotten very lucky with my motor, i'm afraid I can't say the same for you...
05-23-2011, 11:12 AM
#20
same thing happened to me due to a stuck open injector flooding the engine causing the engine to stop cranking. I broke one of the starter tabs but did not have the same damage to my pan as you. so far it seems i have gotten very lucky with my motor, i'm afraid I can't say the same for you...