Starting an Lq4 build
12-12-2011, 08:57 AM
#121
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Unrelated post here.
I tried to buy a parts car this weekend. A guy was selling a worn the hell out v6 with a GU5 rearend down on the south side of the city. I had a price worked out with the guy, but I can't even profit on it because of uhaul.
It's a stripper car @ $550, bad engine, bad everything really.. but uhaul wants $100 to rent a trailer for 4 hours?? I pick it up, I drop it off, why $100?? pisses me off.
So.. I have to let that one go.. and it's kind of irritating me that I do because of uhaul, and not because of the car.
in a more related topic.. I was looking at heads, the prc 227 @ ~57CC seems to be the best bet I think. They still flow low 300 cfm at ~.600" lift despite the small chamber. This should be good for compression and power. They're about $2400. I COULD buy them right now, but I don't think I want to yet. There's a LOT more parts I need for this engine. Buying the heads would just spend $2400 that I won't see again, and the motor will continue to sit in the garage ont he engine stand for another 6-10 months.
What's left for JUST THE ENGINE:
heads
head gaskets
injectors
intake
fuel rails
throttle body
oil pan
oil pan gasket
windage tray
dipstick and tube
water pump
flycutting
oil pickup tube
new sensors all around
ls6 valley cover
valley cover gasket
water pump gaskets
plugs
rockers
pushrods
lifters
lifter trays
that would complete the "engine."
Outside of the engine, before this swap can be done I'd also need:
headers
Y pipe
cat back
walbro 255
new sending unit (since the tank has to come down anyway..)
tuning
If I want to COMPLETE the project I'd ALSO need:
4L80E, cleaned up, shift kitted, tranny cooler
converter
80e swap wireharness and programming for it
80e crossmember
80e driveshaft
new rearend (12 bolt? S60? 9"?)
new K member, new UCA/LCA
strano springs
koni shocks
watts link
new control arms
subframe connectors
driver's door
front fender
front bumper
rear bumper
new power window motors both doors
center console upper and lower, and armrest
1 rear ebony leather seat
full paint
It's a long road ahead with this car..
I just tallied all that up, excluding the paint body interior and suspension work.. looks like about $17k.
At least I don't owe it to a bank for a new one I guess..
I tried to buy a parts car this weekend. A guy was selling a worn the hell out v6 with a GU5 rearend down on the south side of the city. I had a price worked out with the guy, but I can't even profit on it because of uhaul.
It's a stripper car @ $550, bad engine, bad everything really.. but uhaul wants $100 to rent a trailer for 4 hours?? I pick it up, I drop it off, why $100?? pisses me off.
So.. I have to let that one go.. and it's kind of irritating me that I do because of uhaul, and not because of the car.
in a more related topic.. I was looking at heads, the prc 227 @ ~57CC seems to be the best bet I think. They still flow low 300 cfm at ~.600" lift despite the small chamber. This should be good for compression and power. They're about $2400. I COULD buy them right now, but I don't think I want to yet. There's a LOT more parts I need for this engine. Buying the heads would just spend $2400 that I won't see again, and the motor will continue to sit in the garage ont he engine stand for another 6-10 months.
What's left for JUST THE ENGINE:
heads
head gaskets
injectors
intake
fuel rails
throttle body
oil pan
oil pan gasket
windage tray
dipstick and tube
water pump
flycutting
oil pickup tube
new sensors all around
ls6 valley cover
valley cover gasket
water pump gaskets
plugs
rockers
pushrods
lifters
lifter trays
that would complete the "engine."
Outside of the engine, before this swap can be done I'd also need:
headers
Y pipe
cat back
walbro 255
new sending unit (since the tank has to come down anyway..)
tuning
If I want to COMPLETE the project I'd ALSO need:
4L80E, cleaned up, shift kitted, tranny cooler
converter
80e swap wireharness and programming for it
80e crossmember
80e driveshaft
new rearend (12 bolt? S60? 9"?)
new K member, new UCA/LCA
strano springs
koni shocks
watts link
new control arms
subframe connectors
driver's door
front fender
front bumper
rear bumper
new power window motors both doors
center console upper and lower, and armrest
1 rear ebony leather seat
full paint
It's a long road ahead with this car..
I just tallied all that up, excluding the paint body interior and suspension work.. looks like about $17k.
At least I don't owe it to a bank for a new one I guess..
Last edited by DarkFox118; 12-12-2011 at 11:52 AM.
12-12-2011, 12:00 PM
#122
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My .02, Determine whether you really need this much HP. I for one decided to go turbo on my lq4. I have forged pistons, connecting rods with a stock crank that has been balanced. I didn't think about how much hp I would want I just wanted it bad a$$. If I could go back and start over I would have just put new mains in, rod bolts and cam, head swap. Oh and ls6 intake. The lq4/9 are great engines by themselves! If i was in your shoes I'd just put a good valve train set-up on it and call it done, and replace the mains and call it done. A good tune and you should see near 400 IMO. I'm still in the stages of finishing mine I figure another year because I set my goals so high and parts are so expensive. Plus mine is going into an old car.
Just my .02 lol, If i would have spent the money that I used in my engine elsewhere in my car, I'd probably be driving it now instead of daydreaming about it!!
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
Just my .02 lol, If i would have spent the money that I used in my engine elsewhere in my car, I'd probably be driving it now instead of daydreaming about it!!
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
The car drives as is really.. I mean all you need is a kia rio or a smart car to tool around in at the end of the day.
The only time you have too much power is when you can't get enough traction.
I don't ever plan to race this car, I don't really seriously plan to take it to a track to get a time, 99% of it's driving will be between 0-35mph and the most it will get redlined will be a few times a day at the most. (if it has a traction problem, it may not EVER get redlined.)
I had a c6 corvette for a short period of time, if you opened it up AT ALL even with traction control on it would light em up on dry pavement. It was no fun to drive that car. Roads were flat and boring to it, and you could never take off because there was always some moron in a minivan in front of you.
so really.. I guess this isn't really about that so much. I'm not sure what it's about.. I guess.. keeping that ******* in the toyota camry that thinks he's better than me from getting in front of me on the interstate?
12-18-2011, 07:31 PM
#123
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This has been quite a weekend. I tried to buy a 99 z28 6MT for $2500 from a guy down the road. We had a verbal agreement that he would hold the car, then he decided to sell it to someone for less than the price we agreed on.
his loss.. she's just gonna wreck it like she did her last car. what a waste.
So Tuesday I agreed to buy a 98 v6 5MT car for parts from a guy on the south side.
so now I have that good fender I need for mine.
it has 230k miles on it, runs and drives but it's rough all around. I'm waiting till after christmas to post the thread on it.
it has a GU5 RPO, so 3.23s.. but on a v6 it's an open diff correct?
so I can't use it. I had planned to use that 10 bolt in my car as a cheap/free swap to a better ratio away from my 2.73 highway gears.
Apparently when my car was hit, either the rearender I had recently, or the wreck tha thappened before I got the car, the welds around the lower portion of the rear of the car sort of.. gapped open. So water was leaking into the spare tire. I filled the hole with silicone and I think I stopped it.
Heads I dunno yet. I gotta wait to get my money out of this car I guess. Leaning toward TSP's 2.5 stage 5.3s.
his loss.. she's just gonna wreck it like she did her last car. what a waste.
So Tuesday I agreed to buy a 98 v6 5MT car for parts from a guy on the south side.
so now I have that good fender I need for mine.
it has 230k miles on it, runs and drives but it's rough all around. I'm waiting till after christmas to post the thread on it.
it has a GU5 RPO, so 3.23s.. but on a v6 it's an open diff correct?
so I can't use it. I had planned to use that 10 bolt in my car as a cheap/free swap to a better ratio away from my 2.73 highway gears.
Apparently when my car was hit, either the rearender I had recently, or the wreck tha thappened before I got the car, the welds around the lower portion of the rear of the car sort of.. gapped open. So water was leaking into the spare tire. I filled the hole with silicone and I think I stopped it.
Heads I dunno yet. I gotta wait to get my money out of this car I guess. Leaning toward TSP's 2.5 stage 5.3s.
Last edited by DarkFox118; 12-18-2011 at 08:12 PM.
01-12-2012, 07:23 AM
#124
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Update:
not much of one, but still an update.
Around christmas I traded a guy I know some laptops for the crank pulley I was gonna get.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SLE-100221/?rtype=10
it's just the SLP underdrive pulley. I was concerned about using the stock one on my LS1 because of the separation problem they have with time and the number of miles on mine.
I also took a trip down the road to hunter's performance in powder springs and spoke with chris and checked out their place.
it's a bit small but he says they're expanding, and they had some nice stuff in the shop when I was there. Really friendly guy.
We've been in talks off and on about doing this motor swap, I'm still a good ways off, but since he's so close to me and seems to know his way around these cars I thought it'd be a good place to go for work.
When we were talking he was nice enough to pull and look at the tune on my LS1 after I was takling about some of the problems it has.
if you've seen my other threads you know I've complained about the smell of gas/carbon in my oil and the pressure dropping over time after a change, seemingly, the oil thinning out. I also noted in an EFI live scan that I was having like 30deg. of timing pulled at WOT and it was running extremely lean in those pulls.
Chris said someoen's been tooling around with my car's tune, and that it doesn't look good. Apparently the fuel mix is all over the place. At 2500 rpm he said it's extremely rich, which makes sense, because this is the speed at which I'm actually getting a hesittation/skip.
That would explain gas in the oil, that would explain loss of oil pressure over time, it would also explain poor performance and the hesitation I'm getting.
This bodes well for the LQ4 project as it may mean that short term, I don't need to do that new fuel pump.
Chris is gonna get me tuned up hopefully in the next few days. Some of the tune price will go toward re-tuning later when the motor's in so I think it's worth it to keep the ls1 in healthy condition until the project is ready. I'll have dyno sheets and all. They won't be impressive I'm sure on a stock ls1 with crappy generic cats and a restrictive stock exhaust, but it'll be piece of mind (peace? of mind?) if nothing else.
I also took the "liberty" today of ordering a new BCM. The warmish weather here in ATL of late has made the radio power flicker issue come back. I bruised my hand yesterday punching the door trying to make it come back on, so either this BCM goes, or the whole car does, because I'm done with this problem.
When I get the new one in and all is good.. I'm gonna go office space on this old one. take it to the work bench, beat the **** out if it with a hammer. It'll make me feel vindicated for the grief it's caused me.
I'm thinking in the short term, I'll be keeping the 4L60E in place and the stock converter. This won't be ideal for this motor in a number of ways, but it will save me money in the short run and get me up and running and back on the road with the new motor. In day to day commute traffic, no matter how much power this motor makes, I doubt it'll stress the tranny or rearend any more than the ls1 does.
I have confirmed that the GU5 rearend is open diff. I'm not the best driver when it comes to stick, but I'm learning. I tried massaging the car out of a mudhole in my back yard (that I was dumb enough to park the car in when I got it..) and spun 1 tire a little bit.
I wonder if it'd be cost effective to refurb that 10 bolt and use it vs getting a 12 bolt from moser or something? I'd need to put a posi in it.. and it'd need new brake lines, and cleanup for paint n all that. Since it has 202k miles on it, new bearings and seals wouldn't hurt either.
not much of one, but still an update.
Around christmas I traded a guy I know some laptops for the crank pulley I was gonna get.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SLE-100221/?rtype=10
it's just the SLP underdrive pulley. I was concerned about using the stock one on my LS1 because of the separation problem they have with time and the number of miles on mine.
I also took a trip down the road to hunter's performance in powder springs and spoke with chris and checked out their place.
it's a bit small but he says they're expanding, and they had some nice stuff in the shop when I was there. Really friendly guy.
We've been in talks off and on about doing this motor swap, I'm still a good ways off, but since he's so close to me and seems to know his way around these cars I thought it'd be a good place to go for work.
When we were talking he was nice enough to pull and look at the tune on my LS1 after I was takling about some of the problems it has.
if you've seen my other threads you know I've complained about the smell of gas/carbon in my oil and the pressure dropping over time after a change, seemingly, the oil thinning out. I also noted in an EFI live scan that I was having like 30deg. of timing pulled at WOT and it was running extremely lean in those pulls.
Chris said someoen's been tooling around with my car's tune, and that it doesn't look good. Apparently the fuel mix is all over the place. At 2500 rpm he said it's extremely rich, which makes sense, because this is the speed at which I'm actually getting a hesittation/skip.
That would explain gas in the oil, that would explain loss of oil pressure over time, it would also explain poor performance and the hesitation I'm getting.
This bodes well for the LQ4 project as it may mean that short term, I don't need to do that new fuel pump.
Chris is gonna get me tuned up hopefully in the next few days. Some of the tune price will go toward re-tuning later when the motor's in so I think it's worth it to keep the ls1 in healthy condition until the project is ready. I'll have dyno sheets and all. They won't be impressive I'm sure on a stock ls1 with crappy generic cats and a restrictive stock exhaust, but it'll be piece of mind (peace? of mind?) if nothing else.
I also took the "liberty" today of ordering a new BCM. The warmish weather here in ATL of late has made the radio power flicker issue come back. I bruised my hand yesterday punching the door trying to make it come back on, so either this BCM goes, or the whole car does, because I'm done with this problem.
When I get the new one in and all is good.. I'm gonna go office space on this old one. take it to the work bench, beat the **** out if it with a hammer. It'll make me feel vindicated for the grief it's caused me.
I'm thinking in the short term, I'll be keeping the 4L60E in place and the stock converter. This won't be ideal for this motor in a number of ways, but it will save me money in the short run and get me up and running and back on the road with the new motor. In day to day commute traffic, no matter how much power this motor makes, I doubt it'll stress the tranny or rearend any more than the ls1 does.
I have confirmed that the GU5 rearend is open diff. I'm not the best driver when it comes to stick, but I'm learning. I tried massaging the car out of a mudhole in my back yard (that I was dumb enough to park the car in when I got it..) and spun 1 tire a little bit.
I wonder if it'd be cost effective to refurb that 10 bolt and use it vs getting a 12 bolt from moser or something? I'd need to put a posi in it.. and it'd need new brake lines, and cleanup for paint n all that. Since it has 202k miles on it, new bearings and seals wouldn't hurt either.
01-18-2012, 02:40 PM
#125
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My little pile is getting a little bit bigger.
I went ahead and got a new rear seal with a new RMS as well, new oil pan gasket, valley cover gasket, Ls7 lifters and lifter trays.
Friday I'm going to have an ls6 valley cover so I can clean up the PCV system while doing this swap as well.
Then this weekend I'm heading up to TN to pick up some parts not related to the engine, but for the car itself.
I had chris @ HPS tune it over the last week or so on the stock engine. I needed to delete AIR and EGR for emissions (funny how that works out huh?) and he said the tune that was on it was all over the place .
I'll have the dyno sheet in another thread later I guess, but from memory it was 293/303 at the wheels in it's current "form." Only thing aftermarket on it is an slp lid.
I went ahead and got a new rear seal with a new RMS as well, new oil pan gasket, valley cover gasket, Ls7 lifters and lifter trays.
Friday I'm going to have an ls6 valley cover so I can clean up the PCV system while doing this swap as well.
Then this weekend I'm heading up to TN to pick up some parts not related to the engine, but for the car itself.
I had chris @ HPS tune it over the last week or so on the stock engine. I needed to delete AIR and EGR for emissions (funny how that works out huh?) and he said the tune that was on it was all over the place .
I'll have the dyno sheet in another thread later I guess, but from memory it was 293/303 at the wheels in it's current "form." Only thing aftermarket on it is an slp lid.
01-18-2012, 05:52 PM
#127
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yea man, love to hear about that. I was reading some 80e swaps on here, people getting them from yards for like $250?
a shift kit a good once over by a shop and a stall (plus the install obv) and it should be good to go right?
I already have the 80e flexplate that came on my engine, so all I think I need for that is a wire harness and a tranny mount I guess.
one thing related to my swap that I am picking up saturday is a 3.23 posi 10 bolt. It's not much better than what I have, but for daily driving, I imagine even with ~400whp it should be fine. Once I get it, and get ready to put it in.. I'll have a shop go over it, check it out, put in fresh fluid, seals, any bearings that need service..
a shift kit a good once over by a shop and a stall (plus the install obv) and it should be good to go right?
I already have the 80e flexplate that came on my engine, so all I think I need for that is a wire harness and a tranny mount I guess.
one thing related to my swap that I am picking up saturday is a 3.23 posi 10 bolt. It's not much better than what I have, but for daily driving, I imagine even with ~400whp it should be fine. Once I get it, and get ready to put it in.. I'll have a shop go over it, check it out, put in fresh fluid, seals, any bearings that need service..
01-24-2012, 01:36 AM
#128
Let me preface this by saying im subscribed to this thread as I eventually will be doing an lq swap also. But this thread has been an emotional roller coaster lol! I have read all 7 pages in one sitting. For the money you are looking at spending I would shoot myself if I came in even close to 400rwhp. Throw some bolt ons and a cam in your LS1, dyno 400 then take the other 10K to the strip club! I will meet you there.
That said I support your overall goal and applaud the in depth research you have done. This thread will help many of us greatly with part #s and general knowledge. GLWTB I hope you are pleasantly suprised with the results.
That said I support your overall goal and applaud the in depth research you have done. This thread will help many of us greatly with part #s and general knowledge. GLWTB I hope you are pleasantly suprised with the results.
01-24-2012, 02:35 PM
#129
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My ls1 is worthless.
I had chris at HPS tune it, the most he could get out of the old thing was 293whp stock.
He said it's VERY unhealthy.
I'm faced with a $5k rebuild on the ls1, or going this (or a similar) route to try and get what I need out of the car.
I agree with you on it being an emotional roller coaster. I have a love/hate relationship with this car.
Love when it actually performs well, and I know what it can be.. hate when I have to back down on a honda civic because I'm not fast enough to beat him. (happened this morning.
It was just some random guy.. stock honda with a fart tip.. I was trying to open up space behind me so he could get over behind me.. he had other plans.. had me at a fender the entire time.)
I bought this car so that I wouldn't have to drive my truck every day to work. I have a lead foot and I live in the REAL motor city.. atlanta, so it's a constant race to work every single day. If you fall behind you get stuck behind granny and she'll make you 45 minutes late for work no matter how early you leave, so I have to be on my toes and I need a car that can keep up.. but not suck gas.
Amazingly, my truck CAN keep up.. but it gets 15mpg to do it. The car struggles to keep up, but gets 20mpg as is so it has that going for it.
I was just speaking to Tony Mamo about my top end setup, in his opinion I have a very wrong cam selected for this build.
This sort of throws everything I have had up to this point out the window. the cam is the anchor that the build needs to be built around. If the cam is wrong, the entire build is wrong.
Here's what I do have so far though:
*LQ4 "Jasper" rebuild, .002 bore over, otherwise stock. ~40k miles.
*new ls6 valley cover for ls6 PCV
*new valley gasket
*new Ls2 timing chain
*new ls7 lifters
*new ls7 lifter trays
*new gm oil pan gasket
*new RMS
*new rear plate gasket
*new timing cover gasket
*new water pump gaskets
*new SLP underdrive pulley
*new GM crank pulley bolt
*new TSP ported Ls6 oil pump
*TSP 233/239 cam that.. apparently I can't use now.
the key for this build will be maintaining good street manners, since I daily drive the car it is VITAL that it be able to start and hold idle in any kind of weather, take off smoothly in bumper to bumper traffic, up very steep grades and down steep inclines, be quiet so I don't wake my neighbors when I start it at 6AM, and not shake my guts out or suck gas to no end.
This means having good low end torque more than anything as it is my understanding, and keeping a milder cam.. than what I already own.
Many people say that boost is still the way to go for such a thing. I'm not against that, but it requires a large initial investment, even if I keep the same bottom end that may or may not be able to take it.
In short.. since I lost the cam as my anchor.. I'm adrift in a sea of opinions again.
I had chris at HPS tune it, the most he could get out of the old thing was 293whp stock.
He said it's VERY unhealthy.
I'm faced with a $5k rebuild on the ls1, or going this (or a similar) route to try and get what I need out of the car.
I agree with you on it being an emotional roller coaster. I have a love/hate relationship with this car.
Love when it actually performs well, and I know what it can be.. hate when I have to back down on a honda civic because I'm not fast enough to beat him. (happened this morning.
It was just some random guy.. stock honda with a fart tip.. I was trying to open up space behind me so he could get over behind me.. he had other plans.. had me at a fender the entire time.) I bought this car so that I wouldn't have to drive my truck every day to work. I have a lead foot and I live in the REAL motor city.. atlanta, so it's a constant race to work every single day. If you fall behind you get stuck behind granny and she'll make you 45 minutes late for work no matter how early you leave, so I have to be on my toes and I need a car that can keep up.. but not suck gas.
Amazingly, my truck CAN keep up.. but it gets 15mpg to do it. The car struggles to keep up, but gets 20mpg as is so it has that going for it.
I was just speaking to Tony Mamo about my top end setup, in his opinion I have a very wrong cam selected for this build.
This sort of throws everything I have had up to this point out the window. the cam is the anchor that the build needs to be built around. If the cam is wrong, the entire build is wrong.
Here's what I do have so far though:
*LQ4 "Jasper" rebuild, .002 bore over, otherwise stock. ~40k miles.
*new ls6 valley cover for ls6 PCV
*new valley gasket
*new Ls2 timing chain
*new ls7 lifters
*new ls7 lifter trays
*new gm oil pan gasket
*new RMS
*new rear plate gasket
*new timing cover gasket
*new water pump gaskets
*new SLP underdrive pulley
*new GM crank pulley bolt
*new TSP ported Ls6 oil pump
*TSP 233/239 cam that.. apparently I can't use now.
the key for this build will be maintaining good street manners, since I daily drive the car it is VITAL that it be able to start and hold idle in any kind of weather, take off smoothly in bumper to bumper traffic, up very steep grades and down steep inclines, be quiet so I don't wake my neighbors when I start it at 6AM, and not shake my guts out or suck gas to no end.
This means having good low end torque more than anything as it is my understanding, and keeping a milder cam.. than what I already own.
Many people say that boost is still the way to go for such a thing. I'm not against that, but it requires a large initial investment, even if I keep the same bottom end that may or may not be able to take it.
In short.. since I lost the cam as my anchor.. I'm adrift in a sea of opinions again.
01-24-2012, 05:11 PM
#130
Well I know that sucks with the cam but honestly I think you are in a better place now. I by no means am a master builder but what I have always been told and has seemed to always ring true is to select the rest of your parts first. Heads, intake, rotating assembely and so forth. Once that is done have a proffesional spec you a custom cam to fit your build and desired results. The cam really is the final piece that ties everything together and brings your otherwise unrelated parts together in harmony. I was worried that you were really trying to build around the cam which is backwards. If anyone feels this is incorrect please chime in.
01-24-2012, 05:53 PM
#131
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I've heard that before.. but when I've spoke to shops to get opinions they always ask me what cam I'm running.. 
tony says anything high 220s should be fine. I was just digging around in the FI forums, looks like 224-230 range is good for low levels of boost too, as well as the Lq4 bottom end being capable of holding it.
As such.. I should be in a good position to build the motor NA.. then boost it later if I'm not happy with it.
tony says anything high 220s should be fine. I was just digging around in the FI forums, looks like 224-230 range is good for low levels of boost too, as well as the Lq4 bottom end being capable of holding it.
As such.. I should be in a good position to build the motor NA.. then boost it later if I'm not happy with it.
01-25-2012, 12:32 AM
#132
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Jasper is a high quality rebuilder. The machine work on the engine should be excellent. That engine was still under a 100K mile warranty (parts and labor at book rates!) when you bought it. It even says it's transferrable... (taking engine apart PROBABLY voids this warranty 
)
I'd be ECSTATIC to find a fresh Jasper rebuild for 650...
It should be usable as is. You might want to do some searching on their rebuild practices.
You got LUCKY!
Suggestions-
For boost- cam change (all the supporting parts), LS6 intake. This should run fine NA on regular gas. It will not quite hit your original goals NA but should be close. This path is the least expensive route to a "fresh" engine for your car.
NA- change the pistons! Bores may be re-usable. Not that expensive. LQ4 speced flat top hypers are available cheap. Cam change, LS6 intake. This build should be able to hit your original HP target. (4-450)
Both builds could re-use the stock heads.
Both will require a cam "spec-ed" for its application.
Will they make as much power as the best new hot stuff? Not a chance!
But.
HP per $ they would be hard to beat...
)I'd be ECSTATIC to find a fresh Jasper rebuild for 650...
It should be usable as is. You might want to do some searching on their rebuild practices.
You got LUCKY!
Suggestions-
For boost- cam change (all the supporting parts), LS6 intake. This should run fine NA on regular gas. It will not quite hit your original goals NA but should be close. This path is the least expensive route to a "fresh" engine for your car.
NA- change the pistons! Bores may be re-usable. Not that expensive. LQ4 speced flat top hypers are available cheap. Cam change, LS6 intake. This build should be able to hit your original HP target. (4-450)
Both builds could re-use the stock heads.
Both will require a cam "spec-ed" for its application.
Will they make as much power as the best new hot stuff? Not a chance!
But.
HP per $ they would be hard to beat...
01-25-2012, 07:11 AM
#133
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if it doesn't reach my power goals the project is a failure.
I have no plans to change the bottom end in any way unless required, in which case I'll have to do a whole rebuild on the engine, which will cost a pretty penny. A cheaper route would be to buy a whole new short block if I wind up doing that.
I started out trying to do this cheap, but it seems the harder I try the worse off I am. trying to save money has just delayed this project longer and longer.
I dunno, I heard some bad things about jasper when I did research on them.. AFTER buying the motor. (i'm so bad about researching after I make a purchase.. you'd think I'd learn..) I called them about it, they said that it was out of warranty because it had been removed from the vehicle, not because I had taken it apart.
The truck it was in was odd in the carfax history. Purchased new in acworth, 10k miles a month first owner. in 09 the truck was sold to a 2nd owner with 330k on the clock, a new motor was put in, then 2 months later it was wrecked. The wreck was logged as "minor" and then it was reported that the truck was sold to a salvage yard. That makes me think something else was wrong.. something with the drivetrain. This is where my lack of faith in the bottom end comes from.
Speaking with Tony, his recommendations were to run AFR 210 or 215 heads on the motor, with a cam in the high 220s, and I assume a fast 102 intake. The cost was up there, but not at all beyond what I expected it to be.
I'm speaking with a few other people on the boost options as well, sounds like it will add a LOT of cost to the project to go that way, but in so far as having stable easy low end power with stock street manners, this sounds like the best route.
it'd be painful to drop $10k in one purchase on a $4500 car with 136k+ miles on it, but when I consider the alternative.. selling the car for next to nothing, dropping 100% of the money from it as a DP into a used C6 that barely meets expectations in daily driving and costs a fortune to maintain, at an elevated finance rate, it doesn't sound so bad.
I mean say I don't drive this car for 6 months. Whats it cost me? About $500 for insurance.
I finance a vette, don't drive it for 6 months.. cost me like $4200. That's $3700 that could be going to making this car perform better.
I have no plans to change the bottom end in any way unless required, in which case I'll have to do a whole rebuild on the engine, which will cost a pretty penny. A cheaper route would be to buy a whole new short block if I wind up doing that.
I started out trying to do this cheap, but it seems the harder I try the worse off I am. trying to save money has just delayed this project longer and longer.
I dunno, I heard some bad things about jasper when I did research on them.. AFTER buying the motor. (i'm so bad about researching after I make a purchase.. you'd think I'd learn..) I called them about it, they said that it was out of warranty because it had been removed from the vehicle, not because I had taken it apart.
The truck it was in was odd in the carfax history. Purchased new in acworth, 10k miles a month first owner. in 09 the truck was sold to a 2nd owner with 330k on the clock, a new motor was put in, then 2 months later it was wrecked. The wreck was logged as "minor" and then it was reported that the truck was sold to a salvage yard. That makes me think something else was wrong.. something with the drivetrain. This is where my lack of faith in the bottom end comes from.
Speaking with Tony, his recommendations were to run AFR 210 or 215 heads on the motor, with a cam in the high 220s, and I assume a fast 102 intake. The cost was up there, but not at all beyond what I expected it to be.
I'm speaking with a few other people on the boost options as well, sounds like it will add a LOT of cost to the project to go that way, but in so far as having stable easy low end power with stock street manners, this sounds like the best route.
it'd be painful to drop $10k in one purchase on a $4500 car with 136k+ miles on it, but when I consider the alternative.. selling the car for next to nothing, dropping 100% of the money from it as a DP into a used C6 that barely meets expectations in daily driving and costs a fortune to maintain, at an elevated finance rate, it doesn't sound so bad.
I mean say I don't drive this car for 6 months. Whats it cost me? About $500 for insurance.
I finance a vette, don't drive it for 6 months.. cost me like $4200. That's $3700 that could be going to making this car perform better.
01-26-2012, 01:11 AM
#134
To be honest my friend..Im using this thread as a major guide for swapping my ls1 to an lq4 aswell.My ls1 is dying..worse than yours and spewing oil from the tailpipes! I picked up a stock low mileage lq4 with stock 317 heads and ls6 intake.Im beyond broke and dont have the time nor funds to build a solid ground pounder that I want but I do NEED a reliable running still fun car that I can still save up and add mods to later.All Im going to do for now is simply run the lq4 and maybe throw in a mild cam..224r or 228r and call it done for awhile.The reason for it is simple..it will be more power and torque than the dying ls1 100%..I dont beat the hell out of the car alot ..rarely see track time so longevity wont be an issue.If the ls1 was fun as it is..the lq4's higher torque output will be better on the street..and that you will feel.
My college teacher in auto class always stressed to us his motto "KISS" keep it simple stupid! dyno numbers mean nothing other than a means to tune the efficiency of your setup so dont worry so much on hitting that magical 400rwhp mark.Anything over 350rwhp is fun on the streets with a good suspension setup and lightened chassis.
A cam only lq4 will make me happy for sometime..and if I ever feel the need for more..then a set of heads and longtubes will be my limit for a the street.I cant be too loud with crabby neighbors aswell but still want good lope.
I do have a question though,you mentioned that switching between ls1 to lq4 that all the ls1 sensors have to be swapped over,is this true and does that include changing the valley cover and knock sensors.From what I can tell..the sensors look to be the same except for the oil pressure sending unit?Any thoughts or advice?
My college teacher in auto class always stressed to us his motto "KISS" keep it simple stupid! dyno numbers mean nothing other than a means to tune the efficiency of your setup so dont worry so much on hitting that magical 400rwhp mark.Anything over 350rwhp is fun on the streets with a good suspension setup and lightened chassis.
A cam only lq4 will make me happy for sometime..and if I ever feel the need for more..then a set of heads and longtubes will be my limit for a the street.I cant be too loud with crabby neighbors aswell but still want good lope.
I do have a question though,you mentioned that switching between ls1 to lq4 that all the ls1 sensors have to be swapped over,is this true and does that include changing the valley cover and knock sensors.From what I can tell..the sensors look to be the same except for the oil pressure sending unit?Any thoughts or advice?
01-26-2012, 07:36 AM
#135
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Oil out the tailpipe? Wow.. I have a leaking RMS but.. nothing like that. Mine's mostly blowby and a LOT of valvetrain noise when cold. When it warms up it SOUNDS like a perfectly fine engine, though it still performs sub-par.
Well, for a true "on the cheap" swap, I would simply carry over all my LS1 sensors that are different. (I want to say some of the sensors on the back of the engine are a diferent height, might be for the intake manifold to clear.) The ones that are the same.. well I see no reason you would HAVE to change them.
My logic was that while the motor was out, it made the most sense to start fresh with all new sensors, so that I'm not constantly chasing bugs after I get the motor into the car with CELs and bad driving. In my mind this would minimize the amount of downtime that would occur due to the swap.
Certainly, if you're not planning to replace the heads or do anything too invasive, only minimal gaskets and other things are really needed to get the motor swapped over, and there's nothing wrong with hitting any problem spots that pop up AFTER the swap. A lot of what I'm doing here is just because the motor's on an engine stand in the garage and I can get to it. Once it's in the car, it'll be busted knuckles and muttered obscenities to do some of the things I'm doing now.
On the particular sensors being different, I admit I haven't gotten that far, but I can say they certainly LOOK the same, in so far as the ones that i've seen.. when compared to other gen III motors.
really, the only ones difficult to change in the car are the knock sensors and the 2 sensors behind the intake manifold on top of the engine. (forgive me as I don't know off hand what those 2 particular sensors do, it's been a long time since I've had to know.) the rest of your sensors are pretty easy to get to. So I'd say you're in good shape to not worry about them if you don't want to.
I'm probably going to have no useful updates for a while now. In so far as.. new parts purchased. I'm going to be working with Tony @ AFR for my top end configuration, and I MAY speak with the folks at modular turbo just to get a feel for this as a future option (though no guarantees there. The entry cost into the boost world is a HUGE step up.)
No matter what, I've got some saving to do.
Well, for a true "on the cheap" swap, I would simply carry over all my LS1 sensors that are different. (I want to say some of the sensors on the back of the engine are a diferent height, might be for the intake manifold to clear.) The ones that are the same.. well I see no reason you would HAVE to change them.
My logic was that while the motor was out, it made the most sense to start fresh with all new sensors, so that I'm not constantly chasing bugs after I get the motor into the car with CELs and bad driving. In my mind this would minimize the amount of downtime that would occur due to the swap.
Certainly, if you're not planning to replace the heads or do anything too invasive, only minimal gaskets and other things are really needed to get the motor swapped over, and there's nothing wrong with hitting any problem spots that pop up AFTER the swap. A lot of what I'm doing here is just because the motor's on an engine stand in the garage and I can get to it. Once it's in the car, it'll be busted knuckles and muttered obscenities to do some of the things I'm doing now.
On the particular sensors being different, I admit I haven't gotten that far, but I can say they certainly LOOK the same, in so far as the ones that i've seen.. when compared to other gen III motors.
really, the only ones difficult to change in the car are the knock sensors and the 2 sensors behind the intake manifold on top of the engine. (forgive me as I don't know off hand what those 2 particular sensors do, it's been a long time since I've had to know.
) the rest of your sensors are pretty easy to get to. So I'd say you're in good shape to not worry about them if you don't want to. I'm probably going to have no useful updates for a while now. In so far as.. new parts purchased. I'm going to be working with Tony @ AFR for my top end configuration, and I MAY speak with the folks at modular turbo just to get a feel for this as a future option (though no guarantees there. The entry cost into the boost world is a HUGE step up.)
No matter what, I've got some saving to do.
01-26-2012, 09:42 AM
#136
Yeah my ls1 has something very wrong with either #5 or 7 cylinder.It had a consistent oil leak when the motor was running on open header and knocking near the driver side rear of the motor.So maybe broken piston or rings are gone causing massive blowby.Drives good but looks like im doing rolling burnouts non stop now lol.
Sensor wise I think the only thing I have to change is the opsu so I can use the ls6 intake and Im running a 3 wire cts .I figure the sensors on the lq4 would be newer and in better shape to use than switching to the higher mileage ls1 sensors.
Good luck with your build..should be a nice setup whatever you decide.Im going for 100% budget swap and a cam just for fun...motor swap in and out in a day or 2 and back on the road.
Sensor wise I think the only thing I have to change is the opsu so I can use the ls6 intake and Im running a 3 wire cts .I figure the sensors on the lq4 would be newer and in better shape to use than switching to the higher mileage ls1 sensors.
Good luck with your build..should be a nice setup whatever you decide.Im going for 100% budget swap and a cam just for fun...motor swap in and out in a day or 2 and back on the road.
01-26-2012, 09:47 AM
#137
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I'm not entirely convinced a cam can "fix" the Lq4 to have even as much power as the stock LS1. That's why I'm trying to find alternatives.
A set of AFR 210s, a ported fast 102, and a custom cam grind MIGHT get me CLOSE to my 400whp number.
The car has 293whp now, 313wtq. Its a total dog and very difficult to drive as is. I can't imagine having 300,350,370whp would be sufficient.
I wouldn't be driving my car if it was blowing black smoke or knocking when it ran, I'd be afraid it'd leave me somewhere.
oh, I see you have an 87 TA. So you've already done a swap. Well going from LS to LQ should be nearly inconsequential. The wire harnesses and all mount up the same, it's basically just a gen III generic engine, the minor differences can be worked around pretty easily.
if you decide to start a thread on your swap lemme know! I'll try to follow it.
A set of AFR 210s, a ported fast 102, and a custom cam grind MIGHT get me CLOSE to my 400whp number.
The car has 293whp now, 313wtq. Its a total dog and very difficult to drive as is. I can't imagine having 300,350,370whp would be sufficient.
I wouldn't be driving my car if it was blowing black smoke or knocking when it ran, I'd be afraid it'd leave me somewhere.
oh, I see you have an 87 TA. So you've already done a swap. Well going from LS to LQ should be nearly inconsequential. The wire harnesses and all mount up the same, it's basically just a gen III generic engine, the minor differences can be worked around pretty easily.
if you decide to start a thread on your swap lemme know! I'll try to follow it.
01-26-2012, 02:46 PM
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To be honest my friend..Im using this thread as a major guide for swapping my ls1 to an lq4 aswell.My ls1 is dying..worse than yours and spewing oil from the tailpipes! I picked up a stock low mileage lq4 with stock 317 heads and ls6 intake.Im beyond broke and dont have the time nor funds to build a solid ground pounder that I want but I do NEED a reliable running still fun car that I can still save up and add mods to later.All Im going to do for now is simply run the lq4 and maybe throw in a mild cam..224r or 228r and call it done for awhile.The reason for it is simple..it will be more power and torque than the dying ls1 100%..I dont beat the hell out of the car alot ..rarely see track time so longevity wont be an issue.If the ls1 was fun as it is..the lq4's higher torque output will be better on the street..and that you will feel.
My college teacher in auto class always stressed to us his motto "KISS" keep it simple stupid! dyno numbers mean nothing other than a means to tune the efficiency of your setup so dont worry so much on hitting that magical 400rwhp mark.Anything over 350rwhp is fun on the streets with a good suspension setup and lightened chassis.
A cam only lq4 will make me happy for sometime..and if I ever feel the need for more..then a set of heads and longtubes will be my limit for a the street.I cant be too loud with crabby neighbors aswell but still want good lope.
I do have a question though,you mentioned that switching between ls1 to lq4 that all the ls1 sensors have to be swapped over,is this true and does that include changing the valley cover and knock sensors.From what I can tell..the sensors look to be the same except for the oil pressure sending unit?Any thoughts or advice?
My college teacher in auto class always stressed to us his motto "KISS" keep it simple stupid! dyno numbers mean nothing other than a means to tune the efficiency of your setup so dont worry so much on hitting that magical 400rwhp mark.Anything over 350rwhp is fun on the streets with a good suspension setup and lightened chassis.
A cam only lq4 will make me happy for sometime..and if I ever feel the need for more..then a set of heads and longtubes will be my limit for a the street.I cant be too loud with crabby neighbors aswell but still want good lope.
I do have a question though,you mentioned that switching between ls1 to lq4 that all the ls1 sensors have to be swapped over,is this true and does that include changing the valley cover and knock sensors.From what I can tell..the sensors look to be the same except for the oil pressure sending unit?Any thoughts or advice?
01-26-2012, 03:53 PM
#139
This is correct. The thing that will hurt you with the LQ4 in its stock form for an N/A motor is the low compression. Bumping up the compression a bit would help, or have the heads milled just a tad. Either way or both. But If you go that route be sure you take that into consideration when selecting your cam. If you really want to change the street maners and get that seat of the pants thrill though think about changing the gears in the rear end. A decent set of gears and 370 or so to the rear will keep you happy for a while, especially coming from the sick LS1 that you are now. The numbers may not seem like much but in combination with the gears I think you will be pleasantly suprised.
01-26-2012, 06:06 PM
#140
My first swap lq4, was just stock longblock, with my lt headers and borla exhaust, ls6 intake and a friend tuned it, it also ran on 87. So i was saving a few bux at the pump.
I also kept it simple, by keeping the stock truck cam.
I figured that if gm designed it for a heavy vehicle to pull heavy loads. It should run very well in a way lighter car with a t56 and better in/out. It did, it was significantly stronger than the ls1 with same mods. I had some good runs with that combo. It was just a temp meanwhile i was putting together my 500rw n/a lq4 based build.
Done many 6.0 swaps now since the original 6.0 swap.
You will enjoy it when its all said and done
I also kept it simple, by keeping the stock truck cam.
I figured that if gm designed it for a heavy vehicle to pull heavy loads. It should run very well in a way lighter car with a t56 and better in/out. It did, it was significantly stronger than the ls1 with same mods. I had some good runs with that combo. It was just a temp meanwhile i was putting together my 500rw n/a lq4 based build.
Done many 6.0 swaps now since the original 6.0 swap.
You will enjoy it when its all said and done