LS1/BMW Lower end knock
09-11-2011, 10:38 AM
#1
LS1/BMW Lower end knock Ive recently installed an ls1 into my 1996 bmw 318ti and had been forced to put it on the street before completely finishing the project, interior reinstall and guage install. Ive had it running for about a week and a half and maybe run 250miles since its "rebuild". Bought the engine two years ago on craiglist for 450, the guy said it was rebuilt and said that rings, bearing, a piston/rod, were replaced and the engine was going in a miata.
A friend of mine just brought his corrado home from across the state and wanted to take a few pics of our swapped cars together. So we went to a location, about 6 miles from my home. We took some pics and when i went to move my car, it started making some tapping sounds, then got a bit louder but it wasnt consitant, moreso, tap tap............tap........tap tap and wasnt completely in sync with rpms. Pulled an injector per cylinder to see if the noise changed and the noise was narrowed down to cyl #6. I had the car towed home and looked everything over. The oil was at the "low" mark, so i added oil and started it up, still made the same tapping, so i got online and started looking up common issues. It led me to collapsing lifters.
I emailed the PO, he said he never changed them when the engine was rebuilt. I ordered a brand new set of ls7 lifters from the dealership for 135$ and installed them with new bolts and head gaskets. Everything went back together fine, changed the oil and found a couple glittery flakes in the filter, but i was told this was normal after a rebuild. Filled everything, then started the engine, ran fine for about 10-15 mins, until fully warmed, then i gas it a little gas, i was a bit loud from the lifters breaking in but i heard the faint sound of that tapping from before. Revved it to about 1200rpm and when i dropped, it got pretty low and stalled out, tried starting it again, then it stalled out again. Tried again, and this time, it made a squeek, almost like nails on a chalkboard, which ive heard from this engine before when it wouldnt turn over without a jump, battery was dead. This time, it wouldnt turn over, like the battery was dead again. Grabbed the jumper box and it was the same deal, no start. So i pulled the belt, and tried to turn the engine by breaker bar, would not turn. Pulled the plugs and tried again, no deal. So i pushed the car outside and got a ride home.
Havent had a chance to check the bottom end, but im sure something is tied up down there. Id assume its maybe a spun bearing or something? Checked the cylinders with a boroscope, everything is normal. There's no damage to the cylinder walls, pistons, nor heads when i pulled it all apart.
The PO said its a 1998 engine, but when i was looking for parts for a 1998, like the oil pressure switch, it was incorrect but the 2000 fit, also, the electronics are from a 2000 and not a 1998, based on all the pinouts and such when doing my conversion.
What exactly should i be looking for when i pull the engine and pull the oil pan off? Will i be able to figure out whats causing it not to turn and be able to undo it, IE bent rod, spun bearing, etc. PO said the crank was ground down when he rebuilt it, can it be ground again if needed? Would it be wise to grab another rotating assembly and crank in the meantime and have it balanced, bearings fitted, then install? How do i figure out EXACTLY what year its from?
Trying to figure out whats needed to do next, as this is a major inconvenience and let down considering it was supposedly rebuilt and so few miles since it was first run.
A friend of mine just brought his corrado home from across the state and wanted to take a few pics of our swapped cars together. So we went to a location, about 6 miles from my home. We took some pics and when i went to move my car, it started making some tapping sounds, then got a bit louder but it wasnt consitant, moreso, tap tap............tap........tap tap and wasnt completely in sync with rpms. Pulled an injector per cylinder to see if the noise changed and the noise was narrowed down to cyl #6. I had the car towed home and looked everything over. The oil was at the "low" mark, so i added oil and started it up, still made the same tapping, so i got online and started looking up common issues. It led me to collapsing lifters.
I emailed the PO, he said he never changed them when the engine was rebuilt. I ordered a brand new set of ls7 lifters from the dealership for 135$ and installed them with new bolts and head gaskets. Everything went back together fine, changed the oil and found a couple glittery flakes in the filter, but i was told this was normal after a rebuild. Filled everything, then started the engine, ran fine for about 10-15 mins, until fully warmed, then i gas it a little gas, i was a bit loud from the lifters breaking in but i heard the faint sound of that tapping from before. Revved it to about 1200rpm and when i dropped, it got pretty low and stalled out, tried starting it again, then it stalled out again. Tried again, and this time, it made a squeek, almost like nails on a chalkboard, which ive heard from this engine before when it wouldnt turn over without a jump, battery was dead. This time, it wouldnt turn over, like the battery was dead again. Grabbed the jumper box and it was the same deal, no start. So i pulled the belt, and tried to turn the engine by breaker bar, would not turn. Pulled the plugs and tried again, no deal. So i pushed the car outside and got a ride home.
Havent had a chance to check the bottom end, but im sure something is tied up down there. Id assume its maybe a spun bearing or something? Checked the cylinders with a boroscope, everything is normal. There's no damage to the cylinder walls, pistons, nor heads when i pulled it all apart.
The PO said its a 1998 engine, but when i was looking for parts for a 1998, like the oil pressure switch, it was incorrect but the 2000 fit, also, the electronics are from a 2000 and not a 1998, based on all the pinouts and such when doing my conversion.
What exactly should i be looking for when i pull the engine and pull the oil pan off? Will i be able to figure out whats causing it not to turn and be able to undo it, IE bent rod, spun bearing, etc. PO said the crank was ground down when he rebuilt it, can it be ground again if needed? Would it be wise to grab another rotating assembly and crank in the meantime and have it balanced, bearings fitted, then install? How do i figure out EXACTLY what year its from?
Trying to figure out whats needed to do next, as this is a major inconvenience and let down considering it was supposedly rebuilt and so few miles since it was first run.
Last edited by Tony Nichols; 09-11-2011 at 10:57 AM.
09-11-2011, 10:47 AM
#2
Also prior issues were lack of power, felt like my old I6 then around 4k it would pull like a v8 but not always, acted as though there was variable cam timing. Some people at the shop said it almost sounded like it was mistimed or misfiring when i left.
09-11-2011, 09:55 PM
#3
On The Tree
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cut open the oil filter and see how much metal you have in there. From the noises you are describing it's probably spun bearing. Especially if you saw gold flakes, which are from the bearings. Pick up a LQ4 or another ls1 shortblock, probably the cheapest option to fix it. Unless you have the expertise to reassemble the short block yourself.
09-11-2011, 10:24 PM
#4
If im not mistaken, they were nostly just silver. The filter is long gone, did it on thursday. I had saved the oil from the oil pan, but some dipshit at work decided to dump it out. Also, there was very little shavings of any sort on the drain plug, mainly just in the filter itself.
09-12-2011, 04:26 PM
#5
Verified this morning, #6 spun rod bearing/loose rod. What would be the next step? Remove the crank and rotating assembly to have that cylinder replaced, rebalanced, and new rod/main bearings? Do i need to re-rering the engine? Ive put maybe 200-250 miles on it since its rebuild.
I know a lot of guys would say upgrade to a 6.0 or cam it along with other stuff but ive already gone from 1.9 138hp to 2.5 210hp now to a 5.7.... Ive also verified that everything was replaced, like mentioned, but the chain seemed to have a bit of slop, even though its new.
I know a lot of guys would say upgrade to a 6.0 or cam it along with other stuff but ive already gone from 1.9 138hp to 2.5 210hp now to a 5.7.... Ive also verified that everything was replaced, like mentioned, but the chain seemed to have a bit of slop, even though its new.
09-12-2011, 04:50 PM
#6
i would forge it.. a rotating assembly is like $1800 from TSP. stock bore. that way, down the road, u can go FI or big nitrous. throw in a cam while ur at. itll b alot easier with motor out.
the rotating assembly would include..pistons, rods, bearings, and rings. or if you wanted to save some money. use ur stock crank and just buy forged rods and pistons. stock crank can handle alot of power..
the rotating assembly would include..pistons, rods, bearings, and rings. or if you wanted to save some money. use ur stock crank and just buy forged rods and pistons. stock crank can handle alot of power..
09-12-2011, 04:55 PM
#7
I dont really want to add any power adders to it, its powerful enough in the chassis. Had it weighed in, fully assembled with 3 batteries and some crap i had to take back to the shop at 2900lbs even, which is 35lbs over stock with a 1.9L 4cyl and 5 speed getrag. Beyond FI, what would be the purpose in forging on a n/a DD/weekend car? Mainly looking to get it back to stock and reliable, not looking for big numbers in this chassis.
Last edited by Tony Nichols; 09-12-2011 at 05:11 PM.
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09-12-2011, 05:25 PM
#8
on a N/A motor, and u not wanting to add n e more power. Id just go back to stock then. Me personally would remove the motor and inspect it. I would probably just go ahead and replace all the bearings..ie, mains and rods. throw in a ported LS6 oil pump and a LS2 timing chain just for the peace of mind and call it day man. not really any advantages having forged for a stock or close to stock motor/power. Forged is for big horsepower. Id only do it that way if i was 100% absolutely sure i never wanted to go big. ie FI or n2o.
09-12-2011, 06:26 PM
#9
Yea, definitely staying n/a and didnt plan on having this issue with a rebuilt engine, especially not so soon. The rings, pump, all gaskets, cyl 4 piston and rod, bearings are all new, crank has machine markings and caps have numbers on them from being taken apart. Was hoping I could just replace that piston, rod, bearings, and machine the crank again if possible to put back together. I'm certified in other auto fields, but still learning what can and can't be done in these engines.
09-12-2011, 06:42 PM
#10
when i said rebuild, i meant replace all the bearings. Not all the pistons/rods. Just replace the rod/piston that needs to be. If all the others check out, youll b ok. Id still replace the oil pump/timing chain though with the upgraded ones. i gained 20+psi to my oil pressure when i did mine. What you ahve in mind will work. I was just saying, if it were ME, id go ahead and replace all the bearings internally since im already there. That way im 100% sure that its been put together right and i know for a fact everything is new.
09-12-2011, 06:53 PM
#11
Yea, that's what I meant, just that cyl for a new rod and piston. Also meant main and rod bearings for replacement. For the ls6 pump, are there any mods I should perform on it before installing, or just bolt it in, replace the o-ring, and go from there?
09-12-2011, 07:39 PM
#15
Staging Lane
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Tony, I hope you get back on the road soon. It sucks that once you got it done you had to tear it apart again. On the brighter side, you have learned a whole bunch about the motor.
I will look into that oil pump too.
Im kalib0y from bimmerforums btw...
I will look into that oil pump too.
Im kalib0y from bimmerforums btw...
09-29-2011, 08:21 AM
#17
Got it all apart and to the engine shop yesterday. Weve identified a lot of reused parts in the engine that shouldve been replaced due to age and previous failure. The oil pump is the original, lifters were original, 7 original rods and pistons, one new rod and piston, crank was 20 over on mains 30 on rods, some other stuff. So far, it needs new main, rod, and cam bearings. The cam is still good, the crank is pending for possible repair or replacement. Ill need a new timing set, oil pump, head gasket, bolts, and some other misc. stuff then i can put it back together.
09-29-2011, 12:49 PM
#18
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