samz28

the tcissf 3500 is a great cam, but with ANY cam and boltons you're gonna be pushing the nitto DR's to the limits (as is it would just be easier to install a line lock and run ET's, that deal with babying the DR's out of the hole).

go put the stall in your car and run it for a season with whatever mods you have, you might be plenty happy with it as is. Some cars are faster than others. I don't particularily care to install a cage in my car, so i probably will never do heads. This is my family daily driver muahaha. Being banned from the track for 11's would suxor.

Colonel

"the tcissf 3500 is a great cam"

[whisper]Hey Sam, the TCISSF 3500 is a CONVERTER, not a cam[/whisper]

Even 11s are not a huge problem without a cam if you have the right bolt-ons, the right weather, and a descent track. Mid-12s? Childs play. You DO NOT need a cam for that.

Everyone has their own ideas about converters and cams but this much I've learned from years of watching people...they ALWAYS end up with a 3000 or higher stall (almost always a 3500 or higher.)

Cams end up being 220 or higher (usually 224 or higher.) As for NOTcam owners? Well, let's put it this way...I've never seen anyone go from an aftermarket cam to a Notcam. Not once....EVER. But I've seen MANY a Notcam owner step up to an aftermarket cam. I'd bet that 90-99% of Hotcam owners are first time buyers. If they've had anything else then they have higher expectations.

Moral? Do it right the first time. You'll save money, time, and hassle.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

i think that applies to alot of things but cams is not one of them, just look at how many members here have gone through multiple aftermarket cams

30th TA 0219

While personalizing it is understandable, why replace the cam with something so mundane? Once you go into the motor, you open a can of worms, both with the engine, and your need for speed.
You're fortunate enough to have an A4, so goals of mid 12s are very simple. I know you have your own idea of what you need, but given your goals, and the experience of everyone on the board, history proves you don't need the cam. Bolt-ons alone will get you there. Once you get bored with your times, you will want a real cam, and it will be time to upgrade the valvetrain anyway.
Colonel makes an excellent point, no steps down to Hot Cam. Most people think it must be the answer since it has GMs stamp on it.
If you go through the hassle of replacing a cam and everything that goes with it, you'll be sorry you did for just the Hot Cam, go 224 or bigger.

TaTommyWS6

I don't want to sound like a broken record but, I (and many others) choose hotcam for their daily driver mainly because we want to be able to put a lot of miles on our engines with limited valvetrain stress and no need for ever changing springs again. Sure, I will probably want to upgrade in the future, but I also swapped my exhaust 3 times already... Modding is addicting, and no matter what you do, it is never enough. My reasons for going with gm's hotcam still stand today. For $399 plus gaskets, I'm very happy with the power gain. When it was literally -5 degrees in the morning in NY this winter, I started my car, warmed it up for 30 seconds and headed to work. I have no fear of spring failure, I don't have to rev my engine to the moon to make power, etc... And I LOVE the lope

Different strokes for different folks....

Tommy

mcflyz28

Same as above and I did not let it warm up.

Racehead

I'm thinking of going with the ASA cam just because of the mild lift/decent performance part of the equation. So many people do NOT understand that with the extreme ramp rates of most of the cams out today, that it is not daily driver reliable, which in my book means you can leave tomorrow on a 2000 mile trip and a valve spring breaking is a non-issue. DOESN'T HAPPEN. If you want the slightly better idle/slightly higher hp, extreme ramp rate cam for your car then have at it, but you ARE paying a price for having these cams in your car and the price is reliability.

GrannySShifting

iTrader: (10)

The ASA cam has lazy ramps. So does the hotcam. The ramps on MANY of the cams out there, 918 will laugh at. .560-.570 lift on most lobes is no sweat. Weve used 918s on some serious ramps (.609 lift) at moderate rpm. Valvespring stress is exponential, the moderate cams your talkign about, wont see high rpm. I do some things to save wear and tear on valvetrain without sacrificing power to be safe, but Id put some quick lobes where they will do some good. Shoot me a PM

DO NOT GET A 2800 STALL!!!!! It is absolutely a waste of money. You will not notice a 3200 as Any problem. There are some products that nobody rebuys, or switches to after trying another. Some examples, 3200 and below converters, Hotcams, Granetelli MAFs. We had dozens of peoppl eggo bigger, NEVER had anyone back their stall up lower than 4000. I recommend a 3400-3600 for entry level. Trust the people that have been doign this for years, myself included.

Racehead

And why do you think they made a cam with such lazy ramps ? How do you think one of your .570 lift cams would do at the Silver State running at 6500 rpm for 40 minutes straight ? Not only wouldn't the 918's laugh at such an undertaking, They would fail in under 10 minutes.They regularly break just running on the street at mild rpm's with these cams and should be changed at least once a year. It's not that the ASA cam has lazy ramps at all, but more that the .570+ lift cams have very extreme lobes, and all to win the dyno wars with no regard to daily driver reliability. That's why you constantly read about broken 918 springs on cams that they're supposed to be able to handle.

Blorton

iTrader: (2)

I agree on the merits of avoiding a high lift cam from a reliability standpoint and for a car that's being used as a daily driver.

I like big cams as much as anyone - but I think it's interesting how many people here just slam the general's stuff. I'd bet a hefty chunk that 99% of the dissers are going on hearsay and have never spent any quality time driving a hotcam'ed car.

For me, and I suspect the other hotcam fans - it comes down to a more basic issue...

I bought this car because I tried and hated driving a torqueless import. I like the idea of moving away from a dead stop at a leisurely pace by only having to feed in a few revs over idle. I like having some grunt way down low and I like not having to shift constantly in bad traffic. Yet, the prevailing trend is for people to run cams that make doing that impossible. You always hear comments from people running "respectable" cams that say the car doesn't really like to be run under 2k. But apparently, that's okay because you can "drive around it". No thanks!

Don't get me wrong - if my car was not a daily driver, I'd be running a hotter cam and I'd be enjoying the lope and peaky power curve very much.

I just think all this scorn and derision for the hotcam is unwarranted. With essentially 20 degrees more duration on both sides and a significantly tighter lsa than even the stock C5 cam, it's not a dog. Those of you that think it is could then just have your own logic used against you to deride your cam choice if you didn't choose the latest Trex or other monster offering.

Oh, and a local guy here that road races his Z06 just broke a valvespring in his 382 while running a moderate comp cam with comp single springs. If it weren't for having forged pistons, he'd be in a world of hurt. I've asked what kind of spring he was running, and will edit this post when I find out.

I'll be tracking my car this year, so like the other guy said - I'll not be sweating sustained high revs by choosing not to run a high lift cam.

Just my two cents and I'll let ya'll get back to the bashing...

Dan

GrannySShifting

iTrader: (10)

My opinions are based on the fact that I do this stuff for a living. I have done many smaller cams duration wise, that make more torque EVERYWHERE than a hotcam. I ve done cams equivalent in overlap that make tons more power everywhere.

The hotcam is not a drop in and go cam for most. For a cam that give such a moderate power increase the driveability is not stock like by any mean. The hotcam lopes much harder than about a dozen other profiles that have made 10-20 hp more. Peaky power curve? even 224 cam peaks at 6100 or so. I have never seen a decent cam lose torque from 3000 rpm and above. if your racing below 3000 rpm, your probably getting beat whatever type of racing it is.

I didnt know we are building a Silver State racer. The ASA was built for a road race car. Did he mention he was building a road race car? in that case, id use some lobes that get the valve where it needs to be just as quick, but with about .530-.540 lift. Same ramp rates. It would have the best springs possible of course. If your scared of the big lift number, remember, thast just one part, you can have a decent ramp, but without the lift. Do people run the same sprigns over many long endurance races? im sure GM factory racers dont budget for one set of springs all year, even with their ASA cam. You need to do what is prudent for a vehicles application. I woudlnt recommend anyone road race all year at 6200 with a stock cam on the same springs.

If you know what your doing, you dont have to turn your motor as hard to make the same amount of power as some people do. We had a cam with healthy lobes, over .600 lift on both with 918s drivin everyday. I didnt like it much, it made me uneasy, but the car never floated the valves once, made 20 hp more than most any cam only cars, and did it same rpm as 224 cam. Also it made 390 ft lbs of torque at no higher rpm than a 224 cam, or most any other. I think the low rpm peaks helped much in keeping th evalvetrain together

What im saying is, that we have alot to utilize that GM did not when there stuff was built. Your putting a easier lobe in the car, but your also putting weaker springs in the car. Are you really coming out ahead?

I personally wouldnt put anythign less than a 918 on any cam. yes some have broken. We had about a dozen break about a year ago. Never a problem since, on cams with 220s, 230, and 240s duration, healthy lobes, seeing up to 6800 rpm. Daily drivers, people that cant drive and hang shifts sometimes. For a single spring they are good, and Id much rather have a 918 holding valve down than any GM production spring. People float stock springs with stock cams

ddot

I don't want to sound like a broken record but, I (and many others) choose hotcam for their daily driver mainly because we want to be able to put a lot of miles on our engines with limited valvetrain stress and no need for ever changing springs again. For $399 plus gaskets, I'm very happy with the power gain. When it was literally -5 degrees in the morning in NY this winter, I started my car, warmed it up for 30 seconds and headed to work. I have no fear of spring failure, I don't have to rev my engine to the moon to make power, etc... And I LOVE the lope

Different strokes for different folks....

Tommy [/QUOTE]

That is way the hotcam interested me,what kind of rwhp and track times do you think the hotcam and mac would do??

GrannySShifting

iTrader: (10)

I feel liek a broken record too

You can do the same exact thing with aftermarket stuff. It may cost you $100-$150 bucks more, but its the internals of your motor, if you can afford a cam swap, Id think $100 wouldnt be too much. At the same time, youd have springs capable of handling a healthier cam later, and make more power/more driveable. You know how many Hotcams were incorrectly ground by GM, and have actually caused complete motor failures? Thats not reliability.

Just one opinion

Colonel

Hotcam rationalizing is an amusing yet depressing plight to observe. Valvespring life this, makes good TQ that, has a cool idle, didn't cost as much..."but I'll probably upgrade one day"...

For every excuse of why a Notcam was a good choice, there's an aftermarket cam that will make ALL of the same points but better. Where are all of these valvespring failures from folks running XE-R cams let alone XE cams? I read about it in the Enquirer the other day. The only ones I see are in improperly setup valvetrains or the occasional fluke which can happen with ANY cam. A good installation and a good set of valvesprings makes the valvespring issue a NON-issue. I'm running an XE-R cam in my DAILY driver and like many countless others, I have no fears of making 1000+ miles trips. Valvesprings never cross my mind when I'm driving it. I have confidence that MTI did a great install and did their homework when they picked the valvesprings. The result of my little 224 cam and LS6 heads is that I have a silky smooth idle, perfect drivability, great gas mileage (better than stock), 423 RWHP, and 11 second timeslips with a 3525lb raceweight and stock gearing.

I could have gone through a Notcam, then an LS6 cam, maybe a few others, and finally the SSII cam to get to the happy state of camshaft quam where I am now...but man, would that have been an EXPENSIVE waste of time! Glad I did it right THE FIRST time. Best of luck to you Notcam owners who are considering upgrading. Come on over to reality. Better power and drivability awaits...

Racehead

Colonel,
Type "broken valve spring" into the Enquirer/Search engine and see what you come up with.

Of course an XE or XE-R lobe will make more power with a smoother idle. That's what high ramp rate cams do, that's why they make them and that's why most of you rush to toss them in your car. And for most of you they are the right choice, after all the momentary high rpm blast down the 1/4 mile accompanied by some street driving isn't really all that stressful.But believe it or not you pay a reliability price to have that cam in your car. In order to hold the valve open longer and then snap it closed more quickly you have to have more spring pressure. No 2 ways about it. More valve spring pressure ALWAYS means more stress on the rest of the valve train, which means less reliability. Simple physics and metalurgical properties dictate this fact. It's not really even debatable.

Perhaps this cam is reliable in YOUR application, or maybe even MOST people's applications, but can't you appreciate the fact that it might not be in someones else's ? Stock rockers spit needle bearings out with the stock cam, do you really think adding an XE-R lobe camshaft with a 918 spring has no affect on these already suspect rockers ? What if the guy your giving advice to drives his car on 2000 mile road trips to participate in an Open road race where he's 300 miles from any shop and running his engine at 6000+ rpm, NEVER going below this rpm for 40 minutes straight and then drives his car home again ? Do you think the stress you put your engine under is even on the same planet as in this application ? The answer is NO it's not. You're combo would cost you a disintegrated engine within 5 minutes in this application. The simple addition of a hotcam/ASA or otherwise slower ramprate cam will allow it to live.

Differant applications call for differant cams. That's why they make them. If there was NO price to be paid for running an extreme lobe cam then they wouldn't make any other kind.

Colonel

I'd hope if anyone who is going to be competing in an event that requires constant 6000+ RPM operation has a good idea of what they're doing...to the point that the Hotcam is not even a consideration. Perhaps further mods than a simple cam change are warranted. But that's another subject.

Do I think my engine would last at 6000+ for 40 minutes? Yes, I do as far as the valvetrain is concerned. Your opinion is 5 minutes. I disagree wholeheartedly. Why would it not last? I hear you about the stock rockers. There have been problems...but they weren't camshaft related. They were just faulty. They do it with STOCK cams, they'll do it with aftermarket cams...and yes, they'll do it with the Hotcam. For constant high RPM use with ANY cam I'd go with a good set of rockers if you want the extra insurance of reliability.

If you want true STOCK reliability then leave it stock. Don't so much as remove a valvecover. If you want all out power then go with a solid lift cam. Then somewhere inbetween there's a nice comfy spot that gives alot of both.

Anyway, for argument's sake (since we're now on to running continuous 6000+ RPMs), would I trust a Hotcam with the springs that most people use with them or a moderate 224/.560 XE cam with top notch springs. I'll take the latter. And, would I trust the quality control of a Comp, Lunati, or Crane under race conditions...or GM's Hotcam. No comparison, GM's Hotcam destroyed ALOT of engines a few years back as many recall. They forgot the heat treatment on the lobe surfaces. Duh. I'll take the aftermarket for racing, no doubt about it.

Damian

iTrader: (89)

Whoever said they ran a Hotcam for driveability reasons need to get their brains checked out. A Hotcam has worse driveability manners than my old 230/230 110 LSA XE-R cam and MUCH less power.....

Blorton

iTrader: (2)

I'm enjoying the banter going back and forth on this issue and hope that ya'll can keep it up a little while longer.

Let me add something interesting to the discussion.

I've decided to go with the General's trick ls6 heads, because frankly - they're a bargain. I'm looking at a monstrous core charge to upgrade from my LS1's to get anything remotely close from any of our fine vendors. No, I won't entertain running the cheapie "welded up (unnamed brand) heads that don't have a core charge" on my car. Sorry.

Colonel - and anyone else that wants to pipe up, given that the General's head starts falling down after .500, what "mildish" aftermarket cam would you run with it for a daily-driver that will see weekend road racing time?

I picked up a used hotcam for cheap, but could easily go with the ASA(yea - I know that's hardly a mild cam - think of it as about as extreme as I'd want to go.) or something like the TR224. I'd prefer a traditional split cam to complement the flow behavior of the new heads. I'm thinking lift needs to be no greater than around .540.

Thanks!
Dan

Colonel

"I'm enjoying the banter going back and forth on this issue and hope that ya'll can keep it up a little while longer."

I'm enjoying it too but every now and then I feel I should point out that as with any debate, ideas, tone, and intent can come across brashly, exagerated, or otherwise misunderstood in print to some...so all should keep that in mind. We're here to learn, teach, and express our opinions hopefully for the benefit of those who are listening....with a little bit of sarchasim and ribbing thrown in for good measure.

In other words, it's all in good fun!

GrannySShifting

iTrader: (10)

if your going to run a XE lobe, the low lift would probably suffice Dan. The front side of that lobe seem to get the lifter with a hundreth of an inch lift of the high lift XE series.

its not so much about lift end number (unless your trying to get the valve up to peak flow, which isnt high on a stock head... but on your heads, I hope they wont die at .500) Shoot me a pm sometime