About to purchase H/C/I... Any thoughts before decision is made
#61
10 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: California
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well since Jake scared the **** out of me, I've opted out of the Cam. The guy was a trooper and worked with me.
So now that we know I want to run the TEA Stage 2 LS6 heads (63cc) and a .040" gasket. What cam will bring this package together?
(I want to run the .040" for the compression bump. Is this a good idea? or should I run the .051" and broaden my options maybe?)
So now that we know I want to run the TEA Stage 2 LS6 heads (63cc) and a .040" gasket. What cam will bring this package together?
(I want to run the .040" for the compression bump. Is this a good idea? or should I run the .051" and broaden my options maybe?)
#62
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
Jake you're the man for getting this into a formula. The Google machine said there wasn't one.
So understanding this. .080" is the standard minimum clearance. .060" will work. Where did you find this information? I ask because a lot of people say .100" is standard. I have no idea, thats why I ask.
Using your formula
.120" (Free drop) - .006" (Piston depth) - .080" (STD. Min clearance) + .051" (Gasket thickness) = .085" Meaning I'm .005" in the clear over the standard minimum?
.120-.006-.080+.040=0.074 If .060 will work, then .074 puts me in the middle, if I wanted to bump up the compression using the smaller gasket.
Now what I guess I'm mistaking is I have to subtract the TDC Clearance-Head clearance?
I have the CAM specs attached. I can also work it out with him and tell him this cam would cause PTV clearance issues and get my money back.
In the mean time, what cam would be a good choice for these heads if this one doesn't work out?
So understanding this. .080" is the standard minimum clearance. .060" will work. Where did you find this information? I ask because a lot of people say .100" is standard. I have no idea, thats why I ask.
Using your formula
.120" (Free drop) - .006" (Piston depth) - .080" (STD. Min clearance) + .051" (Gasket thickness) = .085" Meaning I'm .005" in the clear over the standard minimum?
.120-.006-.080+.040=0.074 If .060 will work, then .074 puts me in the middle, if I wanted to bump up the compression using the smaller gasket.
Now what I guess I'm mistaking is I have to subtract the TDC Clearance-Head clearance?
I have the CAM specs attached. I can also work it out with him and tell him this cam would cause PTV clearance issues and get my money back.
In the mean time, what cam would be a good choice for these heads if this one doesn't work out?
The formula for available clearance @ TDC for the heads shows you how much room you have. If that value is less (and it includes the minimum clearance spec) you have to flycut to make room for the camshaft. Of course, you'd measure, but if you're buying parts and mixing and matching together, this helps you eliminate combos that won't work.
The problem with the TEA Stage 2 heads, and really any ported stockers with larger valves is you start out with a much smaller "freedrop." Freedrop on LS6 heads are around .150" and the 2.04" valve in the LS6 takes that down to around .120" and the TFS are about .160" at 64cc and AFR are like .160" at 66cc. So you can use that value to calculate the general ballpark.
I'm in no way advocating that this is the end-all-be-all. It's not. It just helps you guess how close you'd be. Can you run .030"? Sure. If you over rev or miss a shift you'll kiss the pistons with the valves and maybe they'll survive. Maybe they won't.
A lot of the big cams like the T-Rex only have .020" clearance. It's just what it is.
And the .080" number comes from various sources and the .060" number comes from TSP and Livernois. They don't like to run less than that on combos they install and tune.
#63
10 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: California
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I appreciate the heads up. I would rather be safe than sorry by any means. So .030" is way to close for me. I'd like to get a cam that will work with what I got. (I.E the TEA Stage 2 63cc heads)
Edit: With out having to fly-cut or anything. (Also when I said you scared the **** out of me, I was just trying to be funny, no pun intended.)
Edit: With out having to fly-cut or anything. (Also when I said you scared the **** out of me, I was just trying to be funny, no pun intended.)
Last edited by FEAR LS; 12-24-2012 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Update
#64
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
I know. Good luck either way. Like I said something like an XFI/XE-R 224/230 113+1 would work with them and GM MLS gaskets. Talk to Mike to verify or see what he says. LSL lobes can also be had in smaller increments now too... so maybe a 225/229 113+1 LSL would work fine or even a 227/231.
As you know, the problem as you start to get bigger on the cams, you need to either up the compression or advance the cam to keep dynamic compression up and keep the IVC from being too late and creating a "peaky" cam. Not wanting to flycut (and I don't blame you) and having a head without much clearance means you're limited to a fairly mild cam.
As you know, the problem as you start to get bigger on the cams, you need to either up the compression or advance the cam to keep dynamic compression up and keep the IVC from being too late and creating a "peaky" cam. Not wanting to flycut (and I don't blame you) and having a head without much clearance means you're limited to a fairly mild cam.
#65
10 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: California
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have updated the original post.
With the help from JakeFusion and Martin@Tick, I feel confident in the choice we pulled together. I will still verify PTV clearance using the clay method but I will be happy with the clearances that have been spec'd out using the formula.
I also appreciate all the comments and suggestions from the other members as well.
I cannot wait to start tearing into the build. I'm trying to at least get most of the parts on order and/or delivered before I go all out with tear down. (It's cold as hell in the mornings on a bike, and my wife hates when I drive the truck and leave her stranded..lol)
With the help from JakeFusion and Martin@Tick, I feel confident in the choice we pulled together. I will still verify PTV clearance using the clay method but I will be happy with the clearances that have been spec'd out using the formula.
I also appreciate all the comments and suggestions from the other members as well.
I cannot wait to start tearing into the build. I'm trying to at least get most of the parts on order and/or delivered before I go all out with tear down. (It's cold as hell in the mornings on a bike, and my wife hates when I drive the truck and leave her stranded..lol)
#67
10 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: California
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
99BluZ28- I appreciate the suggetions but I think this is where I want to be, I'm more than happy to hear your thoughts on this Cam.
Edit: (12/26/12) Heads/Cam – I have changed my mind so many times but due to budget, I've purchased a set of TEA Stage 2 LS6 (799 Castings) milled to 63cc. These heads have made the cam selection very tight due to the milling, larger valves (2.04I and 1.575E), and me trying to avoid fly cutting. I have have received a vast amount of knowledge from JakeFusion and Martin @ Tick. I have come up from the two of them a cam choice of 227/235 .614" .621" 110+3 on a 107ICL with 10.5* of over lap. I can't recall the exact lobes that are being used but if you guys want to know I can find that out. The tolerances are still going to be tight, but good enough for me. My static compression with a .051 stock head gasket is 10.84:1 and dynamic compression is 8.58:1.
Edit: (12/26/12) Heads/Cam – I have changed my mind so many times but due to budget, I've purchased a set of TEA Stage 2 LS6 (799 Castings) milled to 63cc. These heads have made the cam selection very tight due to the milling, larger valves (2.04I and 1.575E), and me trying to avoid fly cutting. I have have received a vast amount of knowledge from JakeFusion and Martin @ Tick. I have come up from the two of them a cam choice of 227/235 .614" .621" 110+3 on a 107ICL with 10.5* of over lap. I can't recall the exact lobes that are being used but if you guys want to know I can find that out. The tolerances are still going to be tight, but good enough for me. My static compression with a .051 stock head gasket is 10.84:1 and dynamic compression is 8.58:1.
#71
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (35)
99BluZ28- I appreciate the suggetions but I think this is where I want to be, I'm more than happy to hear your thoughts on this Cam.
Edit: (12/26/12) Heads/Cam – I have changed my mind so many times but due to budget, I've purchased a set of TEA Stage 2 LS6 (799 Castings) milled to 63cc. These heads have made the cam selection very tight due to the milling, larger valves (2.04I and 1.575E), and me trying to avoid fly cutting. I have have received a vast amount of knowledge from JakeFusion and Martin @ Tick. I have come up from the two of them a cam choice of 227/235 .614" .621" 110+3 on a 107ICL with 10.5* of over lap. I can't recall the exact lobes that are being used but if you guys want to know I can find that out. The tolerances are still going to be tight, but good enough for me. My static compression with a .051 stock head gasket is 10.84:1 and dynamic compression is 8.58:1.
Edit: (12/26/12) Heads/Cam – I have changed my mind so many times but due to budget, I've purchased a set of TEA Stage 2 LS6 (799 Castings) milled to 63cc. These heads have made the cam selection very tight due to the milling, larger valves (2.04I and 1.575E), and me trying to avoid fly cutting. I have have received a vast amount of knowledge from JakeFusion and Martin @ Tick. I have come up from the two of them a cam choice of 227/235 .614" .621" 110+3 on a 107ICL with 10.5* of over lap. I can't recall the exact lobes that are being used but if you guys want to know I can find that out. The tolerances are still going to be tight, but good enough for me. My static compression with a .051 stock head gasket is 10.84:1 and dynamic compression is 8.58:1.
#72
FormerVendor
iTrader: (3)
PTV is a well kept secret in this industry, and shops tell guys all the time "You'll be fine, don't worry about it, you've got x amount of clearance." When in all reality you've got much less than what was told to the customer.
With the cam that I have chosen for James it's looking like he'll have between .051"-.055" of clearance. Is that ideal by any means? Not really, will it work? Yes and we've unfortunately done much tighter by customer request because they didn't want to fly-cut.
That said, those figures are with LSL lobes, if James wants more clearance we could go to a milder lobe with less tappet lift@TDC which would free up some more space, but take away idle quality and drivability by creating more overlap@.006".
Fly-cutting would be the best bet, but some guys just don't have that option or luxury.
These are just my words of wisdom take them how you want.
With the cam that I have chosen for James it's looking like he'll have between .051"-.055" of clearance. Is that ideal by any means? Not really, will it work? Yes and we've unfortunately done much tighter by customer request because they didn't want to fly-cut.
That said, those figures are with LSL lobes, if James wants more clearance we could go to a milder lobe with less tappet lift@TDC which would free up some more space, but take away idle quality and drivability by creating more overlap@.006".
Fly-cutting would be the best bet, but some guys just don't have that option or luxury.
These are just my words of wisdom take them how you want.
#74
10 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: California
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The point isn't that its to hard or to expensive for me to add into the budget, the point is that I have seen so many builds with great success with tighter tolerances than mine. (I.E Smaller combustion chambers, bigger cams, smaller gaskets, etc) and it blows my mind how on my build I'll have to flycut. Should I fly cut? I'm going to measure and if I'm less than expected I will flycut. I have to measure first. The tolerances that Martin and I think I will be at are tolerable for me. But I will only know once I have measured.
At first I was against fly cutting, but once I found out it isn't as tough as it sounds I changed my mind. Do I still want to avoid it? Yes. I've talked to many different people about it, but only time will tell.
At first I was against fly cutting, but once I found out it isn't as tough as it sounds I changed my mind. Do I still want to avoid it? Yes. I've talked to many different people about it, but only time will tell.
#76
On The Tree
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maplewood, MN
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same
Nice looking build so far FEAR LS, i'm doing a very similar build this winter with my 00 WS6 M6 so I would definitely like to see your end results.
Jake I might have to ask you for some advice in the future since you seem to have a good understanding of some of the numbers going on in my head. BTW I'm a Nissan mechanic as far as my knowledge goes if you ever come across a timing chain noise in the near future lol
Jake I might have to ask you for some advice in the future since you seem to have a good understanding of some of the numbers going on in my head. BTW I'm a Nissan mechanic as far as my knowledge goes if you ever come across a timing chain noise in the near future lol
#77
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
Haha. I'm getting closer and closer... at 80k on my Nissan... I have worked on it more than my T/A to be honest. It's actually easier to work on despite being FWD. I know, that's blasphemous. But everything is packed in so close in the LS1, it's actually easier to get around the VQ35 most days.
#78
FormerVendor
iTrader: (3)
Haha. I'm getting closer and closer... at 80k on my Nissan... I have worked on it more than my T/A to be honest. It's actually easier to work on despite being FWD. I know, that's blasphemous. But everything is packed in so close in the LS1, it's actually easier to get around the VQ35 most days.
#79
10 Second Club
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: California
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice looking build so far FEAR LS, i'm doing a very similar build this winter with my 00 WS6 M6 so I would definitely like to see your end results.
Jake I might have to ask you for some advice in the future since you seem to have a good understanding of some of the numbers going on in my head. BTW I'm a Nissan mechanic as far as my knowledge goes if you ever come across a timing chain noise in the near future lol
Jake I might have to ask you for some advice in the future since you seem to have a good understanding of some of the numbers going on in my head. BTW I'm a Nissan mechanic as far as my knowledge goes if you ever come across a timing chain noise in the near future lol
Well I've made a little progress in a couple hours worth of work. I could of pulled the heads tonight but the wifey was ready for me to finish up for the evening.
Looking forward to all the new packages arriving! Still in need of the Fast 92/92 setup, looking for that good deal.
I posted a couple pics of the TEA Stage II heads. I can post their flow results if anyone is curious. I will say I was impressed with the numbers, comparing them to other name brand head companies, they hold their own!