leaking copper head gasket many questions....
09-20-2013, 01:34 AM
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leaking copper head gasket many questions.... hey folks
long story short told. replaced my BBC with a LQ4 engine i bought from a guy in california. was told that the engine was built for FI, carbed and is a 416stroker. when i said iīm not using the procharger he told heīs gonna replace the heads with some AFR with smaller chambers to bump the compression a bit. so far so good yesterday we filled the engine first time with fluids and started it up but after a couple seconds the engine started leaking water really bad at the heads so we dissassembled. So for the good part of it the heads are badass ported heads from meaux racing, the block and the heads are O-ringed, ARP studs and copper gaskets. now the bad part is that it leaks all over the place. the copper gaskets have something like a rubber/silicone coating on them but if you check you can see that they didnīt seal on the bottom right above the headers. the engine has a 4.060 bore size and the gaskets have a 0.05 thickness. now my questions are should i keep the copper gasket and try to seal that or should i get some standard gaskets. if i get standard can i leave the o-ring wire in the block or do i need to remove it. can i get a 0.04" gasket to change the compression even more or would it make no difference but trouble with valve clearance?
thanks,
pat
long story short told. replaced my BBC with a LQ4 engine i bought from a guy in california. was told that the engine was built for FI, carbed and is a 416stroker. when i said iīm not using the procharger he told heīs gonna replace the heads with some AFR with smaller chambers to bump the compression a bit. so far so good yesterday we filled the engine first time with fluids and started it up but after a couple seconds the engine started leaking water really bad at the heads so we dissassembled. So for the good part of it the heads are badass ported heads from meaux racing, the block and the heads are O-ringed, ARP studs and copper gaskets. now the bad part is that it leaks all over the place. the copper gaskets have something like a rubber/silicone coating on them but if you check you can see that they didnīt seal on the bottom right above the headers. the engine has a 4.060 bore size and the gaskets have a 0.05 thickness. now my questions are should i keep the copper gasket and try to seal that or should i get some standard gaskets. if i get standard can i leave the o-ring wire in the block or do i need to remove it. can i get a 0.04" gasket to change the compression even more or would it make no difference but trouble with valve clearance?
thanks,
pat
09-20-2013, 02:24 AM
#2
pictures might help if you can upload them easily.
Everyone usually runs LS9 head gaskets for boost. I'm not sure how the or ring grooves would mess with the OE gaskets. I guess it depends on where the groove in the head and block are in comparison to the mo;lded seal on the OE gaskets
Everyone usually runs LS9 head gaskets for boost. I'm not sure how the or ring grooves would mess with the OE gaskets. I guess it depends on where the groove in the head and block are in comparison to the mo;lded seal on the OE gaskets
09-20-2013, 02:52 AM
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ok sir iīll do 
but please donīt forget. the engine is now just a carbed (ez-efi) natural aspirated motor and is not gonna be run with a procharger. i know that the setup is not optimal due to the dished pistons and blower cam but the engine was a real steal so i kept that in mind and will probably later rebuild it with other pistons and a beefy cam if needed. the story behind all of this is that i have a all aluminum 540BBC sitting in the garage that already has been in the car and makes insane power but i wanted to try one of the LS due to reliability and some less weight (doing a full pro touring restoration right now with ridetech/forgeline etc...) and after testing iīm gonna sell one of the engines. i didnīt want to go for raw power cause then i had to order a MAST engine to compare but i want to go for power/handling/fun/headache and look at the complete package in the car. so thatīs nothing to do with the problem but i thought before somebody asks why iīm using dished pistons without a charger 
but please donīt forget. the engine is now just a carbed (ez-efi) natural aspirated motor and is not gonna be run with a procharger. i know that the setup is not optimal due to the dished pistons and blower cam but the engine was a real steal so i kept that in mind and will probably later rebuild it with other pistons and a beefy cam if needed. the story behind all of this is that i have a all aluminum 540BBC sitting in the garage that already has been in the car and makes insane power but i wanted to try one of the LS due to reliability and some less weight (doing a full pro touring restoration right now with ridetech/forgeline etc...) and after testing iīm gonna sell one of the engines. i didnīt want to go for raw power cause then i had to order a MAST engine to compare but i want to go for power/handling/fun/headache and look at the complete package in the car. so thatīs nothing to do with the problem but i thought before somebody asks why iīm using dished pistons without a charger Last edited by camaro427-69; 09-20-2013 at 03:02 AM.
09-21-2013, 08:54 PM
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Cpl thoughts,,,,,,those heads were'nt the heads with the notch were They? You might want to magnaflux the block and heads just to rule out cracks that are'nt visible to the naked eye. And finally ,,,,,did You use Permatex Copper Seal ?,,,ha ha Lol ,,,,,,,sorry, I could'nt resist the last coment/question. Good luck
09-21-2013, 11:02 PM
#6
Cpl thoughts,,,,,,those heads were'nt the heads with the notch were They? You might want to magnaflux the block and heads just to rule out cracks that are'nt visible to the naked eye. And finally ,,,,,did You use Permatex Copper Seal ?,,,ha ha Lol ,,,,,,,sorry, I could'nt resist the last coment/question. Good luck
09-21-2013, 11:19 PM
#7
Are you 100% sure they were leaking coolant at the gasket? I did a motor for a guy and he called me saying the headgasket was leaking, turned out it was the ECT sensor leaking, running down and along the gasket making it "look" like the gasket, also on the opposite side head "pass side" there need to be a plug where the coolant temp sensor would be if used for a drivers side head...Other thing to look at also would be the steam vent caps or pipes...
maybe have the head checked for flatness at a machine shop?
check this thread out. read post #12
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...ad-gasket.html
maybe have the head checked for flatness at a machine shop?
check this thread out. read post #12
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...ad-gasket.html
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09-21-2013, 11:22 PM
#8
looking at that thread some people were having issues with copper gaskets, the OEM Composite gaskets used with a o-ring wire seemed to work for some, the Composite gaskets do seal very well, do not mistake for a OEM MLS gasket...My main concern would be if the bore size on a OEM composite will be big enough for your 4.06 bore.
09-23-2013, 02:48 PM
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4.06" is the 6.0 L bore and I know some of the earlier truck heads 862's for instance had the notch . But 2ith aluminum block and heads They are going to be not quite flat after 60-80,000 miles or more so both the block deck and the heads need to be checked for not only cracks but flatness.
09-23-2013, 11:59 PM
#10
4.06" is the 6.0 L bore and I know some of the earlier truck heads 862's for instance had the notch . But 2ith aluminum block and heads They are going to be not quite flat after 60-80,000 miles or more so both the block deck and the heads need to be checked for not only cracks but flatness.
09-24-2013, 02:38 AM
#11
head gaskets Copper gaskets are known to leak coolant.
You have o rings in the block and receiver grooves in the head. Your only choice may be copper unless the Fel Pro 26192 Perma Torque has a large enough bore. I can't find the spec listed for this gasket. All other Fel Pro head gaskets are MLS which most likely won't work with that set up. I say most likely because it can be made to work for race applications if the o ring wire is replaced with copper instead of steel.
SCE Titan makes an .043" copper head gasket. You probably have their .050" gasket on there.
If you are stuck with copper, anneal the gasket to get it dead soft. Heat until it turns blue and dunk in cold water. Spray with High Tack on both sides and let set up for five minutes. Install the heads and torque to spec. I recommend retorque after the first heat up cool down cycle.
It may still leak. To stop leaking use Moroso Ceramic Engine Sealer. First fill with plain water. Check for leaks after you retorque. If leaking add Ceramic Engine Sealer made for plain water according to the directions on the bottle. Run the engine until the leaks stop. Then you can drain and fill with your water anti freeze mix.
Good luck,
Steve
You have o rings in the block and receiver grooves in the head. Your only choice may be copper unless the Fel Pro 26192 Perma Torque has a large enough bore. I can't find the spec listed for this gasket. All other Fel Pro head gaskets are MLS which most likely won't work with that set up. I say most likely because it can be made to work for race applications if the o ring wire is replaced with copper instead of steel.
SCE Titan makes an .043" copper head gasket. You probably have their .050" gasket on there.
If you are stuck with copper, anneal the gasket to get it dead soft. Heat until it turns blue and dunk in cold water. Spray with High Tack on both sides and let set up for five minutes. Install the heads and torque to spec. I recommend retorque after the first heat up cool down cycle.
It may still leak. To stop leaking use Moroso Ceramic Engine Sealer. First fill with plain water. Check for leaks after you retorque. If leaking add Ceramic Engine Sealer made for plain water according to the directions on the bottle. Run the engine until the leaks stop. Then you can drain and fill with your water anti freeze mix.
Good luck,
Steve
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Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
09-24-2013, 01:42 PM
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hmmmmm meanwhile we cleaned the block, gasket and heads and tried to get a thin bead of engine silicone around the water passages and reassembled it. now it stopped leaking on the bottom but there is 1 head stud where water comes out at the washer and drips down but just a drop every 20 seconds. donīt know if we should just get that hex-head off the stud and seal there but it all seems to be band aids. the engine is not blown so what if i remove the o-rings can i use a cometic or whatever gasket in the right bore size? i looked at summit and the only gaskets they have with a 4.060" bore are those http://www.summitracing.com/dom/sear...-size/6-0l-364
but probably iīm gonna use a small procharger with a tiny bit of boost to get the engine somewhere to 700HP. so would that work without the o-rings or is it gonna be the spot where the gaskets gonna get messed up?
but probably iīm gonna use a small procharger with a tiny bit of boost to get the engine somewhere to 700HP. so would that work without the o-rings or is it gonna be the spot where the gaskets gonna get messed up?
09-24-2013, 01:54 PM
#13
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hmmmmm meanwhile we cleaned the block, gasket and heads and tried to get a thin bead of engine silicone around the water passages and reassembled it. now it stopped leaking on the bottom but there is 1 head stud where water comes out at the washer and drips down but just a drop every 20 seconds. donīt know if we should just get that hex-head off the stud and seal there but it all seems to be band aids. the engine is not blown so what if i remove the o-rings can i use a cometic or whatever gasket in the right bore size? i looked at summit and the only gaskets they have with a 4.060" bore are those http://www.summitracing.com/dom/sear...-size/6-0l-364
but probably iīm gonna use a small procharger with a tiny bit of boost to get the engine somewhere to 700HP. so would that work without the o-rings or is it gonna be the spot where the gaskets gonna get messed up?
but probably iīm gonna use a small procharger with a tiny bit of boost to get the engine somewhere to 700HP. so would that work without the o-rings or is it gonna be the spot where the gaskets gonna get messed up?
09-24-2013, 02:18 PM
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yeah i did, but sometimes i have to read 4 times due to the fact that english is not my motherlanguage so i was just too fast with replying. steveīs reply is reallllyyy helpful cause we didnīt heat the copper and didnīt use high tack just normal engine sealer. but what i donīt really understand is the o-ring thing so just for me as german-speaking dumbass can i remove the o-rings if i donīt want to build a 1200HP twin turbo engine and use one of those head gaskets i linked at summitracing without blowing the normal gaskets due to missing o-rings? i understand that i can use copper o-rings with the fel-pro in race application but hey like i said iīm pretty happy if this engine makes 500HP to have some fun around home. i just want to have an engine that is fun and reliable cause if i want to wrench and check iīll take that all aluminum solid roller 540BBC which is standing right next to my car in the garage and get it back in. seems like the "engine deals" always go with turn downs so i have to work that out,thanks for your understanding
can i remove the o-rings if i donīt want to build a 1200HP twin turbo engine and use one of those head gaskets i linked at summitracing without blowing the normal gaskets due to missing o-rings? i understand that i can use copper o-rings with the fel-pro in race application but hey like i said iīm pretty happy if this engine makes 500HP to have some fun around home. i just want to have an engine that is fun and reliable cause if i want to wrench and check iīll take that all aluminum solid roller 540BBC which is standing right next to my car in the garage and get it back in. seems like the "engine deals" always go with turn downs so i have to work that out,thanks for your understanding Last edited by camaro427-69; 09-24-2013 at 04:15 PM.
