Short duration, Tight LSA Cams
Short duration, Tight LSA Cams Not too many shelf grinds to choose from. CompCam's 206/212 .515/.522 112 lsa looks promising. Has anybody ever try this cam?
When running this cam on a computer simulation, cylinder pressures in the 2500-3500 rpm range get pretty high, >230. Will predetonation and retarded timing problems arise? I notice other manufacturers shelf grinds do not build high cylinder pressures in this range. I'm just wondering if its intentional to avoid predetonation.
When running this cam on a computer simulation, cylinder pressures in the 2500-3500 rpm range get pretty high, >230. Will predetonation and retarded timing problems arise? I notice other manufacturers shelf grinds do not build high cylinder pressures in this range. I'm just wondering if its intentional to avoid predetonation.
Launching!
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
From: Chicago Suburbs
Your looking at a pretty weak cam there. Youd be better off going with a LS1 Hot Cam from GM Performance. Check out some of the sponsors you can find a way better cam without going to agressive which it looks like you are trying to do. Good Luck
Originally Posted by santino04
Your looking at a pretty weak cam there. Youd be better off going with a LS1 Hot Cam from GM Performance. Check out some of the sponsors you can find a way better cam without going to agressive which it looks like you are trying to do. Good Luck
So, because of the stock converter, I am looking for a cam that adds power from off-idle, makes a noticeable mid range improvement, and doesn't quit pulling until high 5000s. In essence, I just want to change the torque characteristics by bringing some of the power lower without losing anything on top. A cam with a little more duration than stock and a tighter lsa theoretically should get me what I am looking for. I'm just a bit worried that the midrange cylinder pressures are going to be too high and thus be counterproductive to my goals.
Anybody have first hand experience with that cam or know somebody that ran one? TIA
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
Likes: 17
From: BFE
You are wasting money and time with such a little cam. If 12's is what you want, I would get a converter.
Cheaper than a cam setup (Cam+valvetrain+gaskets+install)
TCI 3500 2.5 str is what I recommend and with 3:42 or higher it is a jewel for the street.(I got a 1 sec lower time after install)
TC + Cooler is all you need.
Then ported TB, MAF descreen and a "good" tune. You'll be happy in the mid 12's.
Cheaper than a cam setup (Cam+valvetrain+gaskets+install)
TCI 3500 2.5 str is what I recommend and with 3:42 or higher it is a jewel for the street.(I got a 1 sec lower time after install)
TC + Cooler is all you need.
Then ported TB, MAF descreen and a "good" tune. You'll be happy in the mid 12's.
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; Aug 13, 2004 at 04:29 AM.
That's the exact cam I installed, but in a truck with 4.8L. I also have the Pro Mag 1.85 ratio rockers in the so the lift is higher than listed because that cam is ground for the stock 1.7 lifters. It's supposed to start pulling at 2K, but I don't really feel it until 4K. I would have gone with longer duration if I had more displacement. The 112 LSA sounds good thru headers and gutted cats. I'm satisfied with that cam. It idles well although I do sometimes get the P0300 DTC which turns on the SES. I also put in some CC 918s due to lift which is close to 575 with those rockers.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 140
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From: Lakewood, OH and Grand Marais, MI
I ran the Comp 206/212 before I got my ported heads, when I went a little bigger (see sig below). That cam made monster, rat block type off-idle torque, much more than I could use out of the hole on my stock F1's. I could cruise in 6th gear at 55 MPH with no problems. Made good power all the way to 6K RPM.
I have an M6, but I always figured that would be a great cam for an A4 with stock stall and absolutely no tuning, for idle or anything else. I even ran the cam with my stock valvesprings with no issues for about 15K miles. However, the 112LSA did trip the random misfire code once in a while.
I did get some pinging on hot days in 4th gear and higher at 4000+ RPM's but only when I was running the imfamous HPP3 power tuning. With stock tuning I had no issues.
I think Crane has a couple LS1 grinds in the 208/214 range on 114 LSA's. I am also sure Comp would custom grind you a 206/212 on a 113 or 114 LSA if you want to back off a bit on the overlap. The GM LS6 cam is another, wider lobe separation option.
I have always been all about torque and driveability. My goal with my "old man" setup was good street performance without too much noise or other compromises. I think you're on the right track as well. All-out strip performance is great, but the resulting street manners aren't for everyone.
With cams, converters, gearing - bigger isn't always better.
I have an M6, but I always figured that would be a great cam for an A4 with stock stall and absolutely no tuning, for idle or anything else. I even ran the cam with my stock valvesprings with no issues for about 15K miles. However, the 112LSA did trip the random misfire code once in a while.
I did get some pinging on hot days in 4th gear and higher at 4000+ RPM's but only when I was running the imfamous HPP3 power tuning. With stock tuning I had no issues.
I think Crane has a couple LS1 grinds in the 208/214 range on 114 LSA's. I am also sure Comp would custom grind you a 206/212 on a 113 or 114 LSA if you want to back off a bit on the overlap. The GM LS6 cam is another, wider lobe separation option.
I have always been all about torque and driveability. My goal with my "old man" setup was good street performance without too much noise or other compromises. I think you're on the right track as well. All-out strip performance is great, but the resulting street manners aren't for everyone.
With cams, converters, gearing - bigger isn't always better.
Last edited by SSLink; May 13, 2004 at 10:36 AM.
I've actually been considering that cam for my truck... seems like it'd be a stellar truck cam for the reasons that SSLink mentioned; big torque off idle, pulls up to ~6k, yet is still mild enough to not require a whole lot of tuning.
eallanboggs- I am thinking that one reason that you may not really feel the motor "come on the cam" until ~4k is because you've got the "baby" gen III. That same cam in a bigger motor will come on earlier simply due to the increased breathing that the bigger motor requires.
eallanboggs- I am thinking that one reason that you may not really feel the motor "come on the cam" until ~4k is because you've got the "baby" gen III. That same cam in a bigger motor will come on earlier simply due to the increased breathing that the bigger motor requires.
Trending Topics
We have camshafts designed to do what you are looking for. Here is a link to our cam page. Please email me with any questions or call me at 1-866-462-4500.
http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...%20LS1%202.htm There is one cam in the accelerated lobe lift version, and you can scroll down to our standard profiles for several other stock converter/high torque street cams.
http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...%20LS1%202.htm There is one cam in the accelerated lobe lift version, and you can scroll down to our standard profiles for several other stock converter/high torque street cams.
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TECH Addict
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,620
Likes: 0
From: Central, MA
Originally Posted by nuzee
So, because of the stock converter, I am looking for a cam that adds power from off-idle, makes a noticeable mid range improvement, and doesn't quit pulling until high 5000s. In essence, I just want to change the torque characteristics by bringing some of the power lower without losing anything on top. A cam with a little more duration than stock and a tighter lsa theoretically should get me what I am looking for.
I've been meaning to ask - Does a tight LSA in a smaller duration cam (under 220/220 degrees), cause any driveability problems down low, say 1000-1500rpm?
Bigger cams will make the motor buck if caught too far low in the rpm range, correct?
Any danger of that happening with a mid-lift 212/218 112?
TECH Addict
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,620
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From: Central, MA
Joe - I REALLY like the looks of your ASP-KICKER cam. Thats exactly what I had in mind for my truck.
In fact, I like the looks of all your cams - they really fill in the holes in the current cam aftermarket.
In fact, I like the looks of all your cams - they really fill in the holes in the current cam aftermarket.
Jeff, They would work great with your cam & set up. It would also add some strength & reliability to your valvetrain.
Marc, Thanks. A lot of these cams were built for that streetlight to streetlight torque & power. A lot of people want the low end and top end power, without sacrificing driveability, idle quality and partial throttle power and response. Joe.
Marc, Thanks. A lot of these cams were built for that streetlight to streetlight torque & power. A lot of people want the low end and top end power, without sacrificing driveability, idle quality and partial throttle power and response. Joe.
Excellent posted information gentlemen!! Thank you.
Those Vinci cams look very interesting. I like the description of the Asp-Kicker cam but I beleive the one step smaller cam is what I should get to meet my goals. I'm going to try & computer simulate those 2 Vinci cams to see how they stack up against the CompCams 206/212. Is there any advance or retard ground into the 043 & 047 cams? Thanks!
Those Vinci cams look very interesting. I like the description of the Asp-Kicker cam but I beleive the one step smaller cam is what I should get to meet my goals. I'm going to try & computer simulate those 2 Vinci cams to see how they stack up against the CompCams 206/212. Is there any advance or retard ground into the 043 & 047 cams? Thanks!
Originally Posted by marc_w
Whoa. Someone else looking for the same thing I am!
I've been meaning to ask - Does a tight LSA in a smaller duration cam (under 220/220 degrees), cause any driveability problems down low, say 1000-1500rpm?
Bigger cams will make the motor buck if caught too far low in the rpm range, correct?
Any danger of that happening with a mid-lift 212/218 112?
I've been meaning to ask - Does a tight LSA in a smaller duration cam (under 220/220 degrees), cause any driveability problems down low, say 1000-1500rpm?
Bigger cams will make the motor buck if caught too far low in the rpm range, correct?
Any danger of that happening with a mid-lift 212/218 112?
The key in low rpm behavior is in the resulting overlap from the cam duration & LSA. More overlap results in lopey idle, less cylinder pressure @ low rpm (meaning less low-end torque), BUT greater ability to rev higher. Less overlap results in smoother idle, more cylinder pressure @ low rpm, BUT at the expense of top end revs.
So, to skip around your question, the behavior of a 212/218 112 cam will depend on the overlap. If you can determine the overlap from that cam vs. a few other lopey cams and compare them, you should be able to get an idea of what to expect.
The cams are ground 5 degrees advanced to allow for timing chain wear and to help in tuning. Remember, with the accelerated lobe lift they are stronger than they appear.
I will have to dig up some graphs of cam only runs. Most have been installed as part of a larger package. I have got to fly out of town tomorrow, so I will have to put those together when I get back. I will check this thread when I get back. Have a great weekend all. Joe.
I will have to dig up some graphs of cam only runs. Most have been installed as part of a larger package. I have got to fly out of town tomorrow, so I will have to put those together when I get back. I will check this thread when I get back. Have a great weekend all. Joe.
Originally Posted by SSLink
Mr. Vinci:
how do you think your accelerator rocker arms would work with my cam and setup? Thanks - Jeff L.
how do you think your accelerator rocker arms would work with my cam and setup? Thanks - Jeff L.
1.89 rockers and springs hp
1.89 rockers and springs tq
here's their corvette test car page http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...ARPARENT2.HTML
test 5 is swapping to the 047 cam http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...T%20GRAPH.HTML
test 5 is swapping to the 047 cam http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...T%20GRAPH.HTML
I'm really glad you guys turned me on to the Vinci website. They have at least 4 mild grinds that simulate more power than the stock cam @ 2000 (the rpm that the computer sim starts at) vs. CompCams only contender the 206/212. This is how the computer sim ranks the cams followed by the horsepower #s at 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, 6000:
(6) stock cam; 147, 193, 241, 280, 301, 308, 299, 279, 248
(5) Vinci 011; 149, 197, 248, 288, 313, 324, 318, 299, 266
(4) Vinci 043; 149, 197, 249, 293, 319, 336, 333, 319, 289
(3) Vinci 007; 151, 199, 251, 293, 320, 334, 330, 314, 282
(2) Comp206; 152, 199, 251, 296, 323, 339, 340, 326, 299
(1) Vinci 047; 152, 200, 254, 297, 326, 344, 344, 331, 301
Please no flames on the accuracy of the numbers. It is just a simple Desktop Dyno 2000 simulation. So take this info as a FWIW. When you look at different cams in relation to one another then the comparison becomes a bit more meaningful. Anyway, I hope some of you guys might find the results interesting.
Since I figure someone would like to know how the venerable 224/224 560/560 114 cam simulates,
heres it's #s: 143, 188, 244, 294, 330, 354, 367, 359, 341
So, that Vinci 047 ASP-Kicker cam is looking like the top contender for me. I hope there is no need for idle speed adjustment or other tuning. Mr. Vinci, what do you think about this cam selection with stock converter, 3.42s, & near full weight?
(6) stock cam; 147, 193, 241, 280, 301, 308, 299, 279, 248
(5) Vinci 011; 149, 197, 248, 288, 313, 324, 318, 299, 266
(4) Vinci 043; 149, 197, 249, 293, 319, 336, 333, 319, 289
(3) Vinci 007; 151, 199, 251, 293, 320, 334, 330, 314, 282
(2) Comp206; 152, 199, 251, 296, 323, 339, 340, 326, 299
(1) Vinci 047; 152, 200, 254, 297, 326, 344, 344, 331, 301
Please no flames on the accuracy of the numbers. It is just a simple Desktop Dyno 2000 simulation. So take this info as a FWIW. When you look at different cams in relation to one another then the comparison becomes a bit more meaningful. Anyway, I hope some of you guys might find the results interesting.
Since I figure someone would like to know how the venerable 224/224 560/560 114 cam simulates,
heres it's #s: 143, 188, 244, 294, 330, 354, 367, 359, 341
So, that Vinci 047 ASP-Kicker cam is looking like the top contender for me. I hope there is no need for idle speed adjustment or other tuning. Mr. Vinci, what do you think about this cam selection with stock converter, 3.42s, & near full weight?
Last edited by nuzee; May 14, 2004 at 03:36 AM.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
Likes: 17
From: BFE
No matter what other cam u get, you'll need a converter to go with it. Remember you're changing the parameters of a complete system (Motor), so the "other parameters will have to be adjusted (Tuning) and/or upgrades.
Keep reading around if you do not believe me. It is a general agreement that a TC swap is more beneficial than a cam swap (ET times) therefore performance and should be done first.
Keep reading around if you do not believe me. It is a general agreement that a TC swap is more beneficial than a cam swap (ET times) therefore performance and should be done first.