Morel Hydraulic Roller Lifters....Noise...
03-06-2014, 08:44 AM
#1
Morel Hydraulic Roller Lifters....Noise... Some people are complaining about lifter noise. I called some of my volume accounts and talked to them about it. One that I have that builds multiple engines a year with Morels has gone old school. He runs a 15W-40 Oil but what that have started doing over the last 3 months is adjust the lifter indiviually while running, "Old School".
Any hydraulic roller is going to be noisey when it first start up. My old boat with a marinized version of the 502 Ram Jet was very noisey until it got warm. It had a Crane cam in it with Crane roller rockers with around .600" lift. As it got warmer it got quieter.
My customer pre-sets preload on the lifters and runs the engine on a test stand or dyno. At temp he then goes back through the lifter adjust each one through cut out valve covers. He has found with aluminum headed SB and BBC both will take varied degrees of pre-load even on the same engine. Some lifters are quiet at 1/2 a turn, some take 1 1/4 turns. Since doing this his lifter noise has been greatly reduced.
Oils, we have to get over this 600HP engine and it needs 20W-50. Most are building new engines. Bearing tolerances should be set to run 10W-30 to 10w-40 oil. If you check out R&M's website and look at their Super Series Engines that make 900HP. If you pull the spec sheet down listed on it is 10W-30 oil. Oils and additive packages have come along way, so instead of doing it the way we did 30 years ago, lets take advantage of 30 years of development.
Lobe profiles. This is the culprit is most cases. 15 years ago if you had a legit 650HP BBC it was a solid roller and damn few were driven on the street. Now this board is more than likely home to most 550HP RWHP cars on the planet and they are street driven rides with the majority of them having hydraulic rollers. With head flowing what they do today we have to get the air in and close that valve to seal its fate of making power. That closing speed and how we set the valve down can affect noise. The lifter in many cases is not the cause, it is channel that is being used to transfer the noise.
Oil flow. I am fortunate to have the customer base I do and have access to testing that most individuals can not afford to do. It has been tested and proven that .0003" extra oil clearance on a main reduces oil flow by 1GPM, thats right 3tenths extra on the main reduces oil flow by 1 GALLON PER MINUTE. This is internal bleeding. Now you take 16 lifter bores at .8435" and add .0003" more clearance to those and think about how much oil is being lost. Carl Hinkson on CNC Blocks NE preaches and preaches proper lifter to lifter bore clearance. It's like main and rod bearing clearance, it needs to be checked!!!
Nature of the Beast.....I touched on it early but we have come so far just in the last decade with making street power. We reguarly see 650HP to 750HP builds put up on this site weekly. We have members that run deep in the 9's with hydraulic rollers. You have turbo powered LS engines putting 800 to the rear wheels with hydraulic roller cams and yes even with the highly refined valvetain of the LS guys complain about lifter noise. Is it that we are pushing HP levels to the point that the "noise" is just a by product of the power we are making? Is that we expect 700HP but want it to sound like a C 7?
Any hydraulic roller is going to be noisey when it first start up. My old boat with a marinized version of the 502 Ram Jet was very noisey until it got warm. It had a Crane cam in it with Crane roller rockers with around .600" lift. As it got warmer it got quieter.
My customer pre-sets preload on the lifters and runs the engine on a test stand or dyno. At temp he then goes back through the lifter adjust each one through cut out valve covers. He has found with aluminum headed SB and BBC both will take varied degrees of pre-load even on the same engine. Some lifters are quiet at 1/2 a turn, some take 1 1/4 turns. Since doing this his lifter noise has been greatly reduced.
Oils, we have to get over this 600HP engine and it needs 20W-50. Most are building new engines. Bearing tolerances should be set to run 10W-30 to 10w-40 oil. If you check out R&M's website and look at their Super Series Engines that make 900HP. If you pull the spec sheet down listed on it is 10W-30 oil. Oils and additive packages have come along way, so instead of doing it the way we did 30 years ago, lets take advantage of 30 years of development.
Lobe profiles. This is the culprit is most cases. 15 years ago if you had a legit 650HP BBC it was a solid roller and damn few were driven on the street. Now this board is more than likely home to most 550HP RWHP cars on the planet and they are street driven rides with the majority of them having hydraulic rollers. With head flowing what they do today we have to get the air in and close that valve to seal its fate of making power. That closing speed and how we set the valve down can affect noise. The lifter in many cases is not the cause, it is channel that is being used to transfer the noise.
Oil flow. I am fortunate to have the customer base I do and have access to testing that most individuals can not afford to do. It has been tested and proven that .0003" extra oil clearance on a main reduces oil flow by 1GPM, thats right 3tenths extra on the main reduces oil flow by 1 GALLON PER MINUTE. This is internal bleeding. Now you take 16 lifter bores at .8435" and add .0003" more clearance to those and think about how much oil is being lost. Carl Hinkson on CNC Blocks NE preaches and preaches proper lifter to lifter bore clearance. It's like main and rod bearing clearance, it needs to be checked!!!
Nature of the Beast.....I touched on it early but we have come so far just in the last decade with making street power. We reguarly see 650HP to 750HP builds put up on this site weekly. We have members that run deep in the 9's with hydraulic rollers. You have turbo powered LS engines putting 800 to the rear wheels with hydraulic roller cams and yes even with the highly refined valvetain of the LS guys complain about lifter noise. Is it that we are pushing HP levels to the point that the "noise" is just a by product of the power we are making? Is that we expect 700HP but want it to sound like a C 7?
03-06-2014, 06:56 PM
#3
Chris,
In my first setup I ran around 0.040" preload and they were a little noisy on first start every time I started the car. With my current setup I am running 0.050" preload and I never hear a peep out of them, even after sitting all winter. My current setup also has stiffer springs.
In my first setup I ran around 0.040" preload and they were a little noisy on first start every time I started the car. With my current setup I am running 0.050" preload and I never hear a peep out of them, even after sitting all winter. My current setup also has stiffer springs.
03-06-2014, 07:30 PM
#4
This topic is something where I have done a lot of sharing and a lot of reading. Most of the discussions I have read almost become comical in their predictability. In almost all of the threads, there are those who have a lifter noise complaint and those that don't. And, regardless of what the people with lifter noise have tried to remedy their situation, those who do not have lifter noise tell them they have done something wrong. Usually this revolves around selecting the right pushrod length.
I too think there is something else at play. Some production variation or yet undiscovered variable that has some engines suffer from valve train noise while others do not. Lifter bore variation definitely makes a logical culprit. Another possibility that I have pondered is oil aeration.
The reason why oil aeration has occurred to me is this: My current engine can be both quiet at times and noisy at others. My valvetrain is quietest after the car has sat for a longer period of time. If I let the car sit for a week or so, the valve train is very quiet on startup and will remain quiet for hours of operation until I run it hard repeatedly. My valve train is the noisiest after a day of racing. Still I can take it home and park it for several days and viola, it is quiet again until I really hammer it or just drive it for a long period of time.
I have considered oil temperature, but after years of observing the car and playing with oil weights, etc. I do not think that is it. The only thing I have come up with is that perhaps the oil has some aeration and perhaps some small amount of air is trapped in the lifter. And, once the car sits for a period of time, it separates and escapes. I can tell you that after years of being annoyed by the issue, you can understand if I am grasping at straws.
I too think there is something else at play. Some production variation or yet undiscovered variable that has some engines suffer from valve train noise while others do not. Lifter bore variation definitely makes a logical culprit. Another possibility that I have pondered is oil aeration.
The reason why oil aeration has occurred to me is this: My current engine can be both quiet at times and noisy at others. My valvetrain is quietest after the car has sat for a longer period of time. If I let the car sit for a week or so, the valve train is very quiet on startup and will remain quiet for hours of operation until I run it hard repeatedly. My valve train is the noisiest after a day of racing. Still I can take it home and park it for several days and viola, it is quiet again until I really hammer it or just drive it for a long period of time.
I have considered oil temperature, but after years of observing the car and playing with oil weights, etc. I do not think that is it. The only thing I have come up with is that perhaps the oil has some aeration and perhaps some small amount of air is trapped in the lifter. And, once the car sits for a period of time, it separates and escapes. I can tell you that after years of being annoyed by the issue, you can understand if I am grasping at straws.
03-07-2014, 12:18 AM
#5
This topic is something where I have done a lot of sharing and a lot of reading. Most of the discussions I have read almost become comical in their predictability. In almost all of the threads, there are those who have a lifter noise complaint and those that don't. And, regardless of what the people with lifter noise have tried to remedy their situation, those who do not have lifter noise tell them they have done something wrong. Usually this revolves around selecting the right pushrod length.
I too think there is something else at play. Some production variation or yet undiscovered variable that has some engines suffer from valve train noise while others do not. Lifter bore variation definitely makes a logical culprit. Another possibility that I have pondered is oil aeration.
The reason why oil aeration has occurred to me is this: My current engine can be both quiet at times and noisy at others. My valvetrain is quietest after the car has sat for a longer period of time. If I let the car sit for a week or so, the valve train is very quiet on startup and will remain quiet for hours of operation until I run it hard repeatedly. My valve train is the noisiest after a day of racing. Still I can take it home and park it for several days and viola, it is quiet again until I really hammer it or just drive it for a long period of time.
I have considered oil temperature, but after years of observing the car and playing with oil weights, etc. I do not think that is it. The only thing I have come up with is that perhaps the oil has some aeration and perhaps some small amount of air is trapped in the lifter. And, once the car sits for a period of time, it separates and escapes. I can tell you that after years of being annoyed by the issue, you can understand if I am grasping at straws.
I too think there is something else at play. Some production variation or yet undiscovered variable that has some engines suffer from valve train noise while others do not. Lifter bore variation definitely makes a logical culprit. Another possibility that I have pondered is oil aeration.
The reason why oil aeration has occurred to me is this: My current engine can be both quiet at times and noisy at others. My valvetrain is quietest after the car has sat for a longer period of time. If I let the car sit for a week or so, the valve train is very quiet on startup and will remain quiet for hours of operation until I run it hard repeatedly. My valve train is the noisiest after a day of racing. Still I can take it home and park it for several days and viola, it is quiet again until I really hammer it or just drive it for a long period of time.
I have considered oil temperature, but after years of observing the car and playing with oil weights, etc. I do not think that is it. The only thing I have come up with is that perhaps the oil has some aeration and perhaps some small amount of air is trapped in the lifter. And, once the car sits for a period of time, it separates and escapes. I can tell you that after years of being annoyed by the issue, you can understand if I am grasping at straws.
The again, I had someone build my engine that was very specific with tolerances.
Bad lifters?? Maybe, maybe not. Could be crappy bearing clearances or maybe just not line honed, pr length, worn stock lifters, lifter bore clearances, mfg lifter diameter???, bearings on lifters bad, worn oil pump, timing chain slack, runout clearance cam, or who knows what. Are we to assume the springs, pushrods, rr, valves, guides, seats, block maching, bearings, everything are perfect? Nope, without ALL the data, there is no assessment possible.
03-07-2014, 09:40 AM
#7
This topic is something where I have done a lot of sharing and a lot of reading. Most of the discussions I have read almost become comical in their predictability. In almost all of the threads, there are those who have a lifter noise complaint and those that don't. And, regardless of what the people with lifter noise have tried to remedy their situation, those who do not have lifter noise tell them they have done something wrong. Usually this revolves around selecting the right pushrod length.
I too think there is something else at play. Some production variation or yet undiscovered variable that has some engines suffer from valve train noise while others do not. Lifter bore variation definitely makes a logical culprit. Another possibility that I have pondered is oil aeration.
The reason why oil aeration has occurred to me is this: My current engine can be both quiet at times and noisy at others. My valvetrain is quietest after the car has sat for a longer period of time. If I let the car sit for a week or so, the valve train is very quiet on startup and will remain quiet for hours of operation until I run it hard repeatedly. My valve train is the noisiest after a day of racing. Still I can take it home and park it for several days and viola, it is quiet again until I really hammer it or just drive it for a long period of time.
I have considered oil temperature, but after years of observing the car and playing with oil weights, etc. I do not think that is it. The only thing I have come up with is that perhaps the oil has some aeration and perhaps some small amount of air is trapped in the lifter. And, once the car sits for a period of time, it separates and escapes. I can tell you that after years of being annoyed by the issue, you can understand if I am grasping at straws.
I too think there is something else at play. Some production variation or yet undiscovered variable that has some engines suffer from valve train noise while others do not. Lifter bore variation definitely makes a logical culprit. Another possibility that I have pondered is oil aeration.
The reason why oil aeration has occurred to me is this: My current engine can be both quiet at times and noisy at others. My valvetrain is quietest after the car has sat for a longer period of time. If I let the car sit for a week or so, the valve train is very quiet on startup and will remain quiet for hours of operation until I run it hard repeatedly. My valve train is the noisiest after a day of racing. Still I can take it home and park it for several days and viola, it is quiet again until I really hammer it or just drive it for a long period of time.
I have considered oil temperature, but after years of observing the car and playing with oil weights, etc. I do not think that is it. The only thing I have come up with is that perhaps the oil has some aeration and perhaps some small amount of air is trapped in the lifter. And, once the car sits for a period of time, it separates and escapes. I can tell you that after years of being annoyed by the issue, you can understand if I am grasping at straws.
Just as a data point. Same lifters, different cam. My current cam is an XE-R. My prior cam was a Crane with slower ramps. Car is quieter now with the more aggressive cam ramp rate.
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03-07-2014, 06:16 PM
#8
....In almost all of the threads, there are those who have a lifter noise complaint and those that don't. And, regardless of what the people with lifter noise have tried to remedy their situation, those who do not have lifter noise tell them they have done something wrong. Usually this revolves around selecting the right pushrod length.
I too think there is something else at play. Some production variation or yet undiscovered variable that has some engines suffer from valve train noise while others do not. Lifter bore variation definitely makes a logical culprit. Another possibility that I have pondered is oil aeration.....
I too think there is something else at play. Some production variation or yet undiscovered variable that has some engines suffer from valve train noise while others do not. Lifter bore variation definitely makes a logical culprit. Another possibility that I have pondered is oil aeration.....
08-18-2014, 02:10 PM
#9
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To add my experience either for comment or added argument
Recently upgraded my lifers to the Morel link-bar variety.
Set preload initially to 30 thou.
Valvetrain noise was excessive. Lifter tick a plenty. Let it warm up to see if it was just a lifter or two not pumping up, which did help quieten it down a little but one bank was still noisey.
More reading indicated Morel suggest 45-55 thou preload, so swap in some longer pushrods. Now have 1-1/4 turns on the bolt so around 40-45 thou preload.
First start up I then had a quiet top end... however got noisier again after a minute to a degree (still one bank worse than the other).
Once fully warmed up (oil temp that is), everythings golden. nice and quiet.
Interesting additional detail, while logging the warm up (still trying to iron out a cold start lean problem in the tune) one bank is trimming 10% more than the other. (bank with the clatter i'm presuming).
Once warmed and noise gone the trims come in line.
Leading me to believe that there must be some tolerance variance between the banks, and that the lifters are not fully doing there job until the oils fully upto temp.
Yet to try a lighter oil to see if that helps (5w-40 currently), or try a little more preload.
Or perhaps I may need to accept as normal
p.s just noticed the date (in US format). So apologies if i've resurrected an already stale thread
Recently upgraded my lifers to the Morel link-bar variety.
Set preload initially to 30 thou.
Valvetrain noise was excessive. Lifter tick a plenty. Let it warm up to see if it was just a lifter or two not pumping up, which did help quieten it down a little but one bank was still noisey.
More reading indicated Morel suggest 45-55 thou preload, so swap in some longer pushrods. Now have 1-1/4 turns on the bolt so around 40-45 thou preload.
First start up I then had a quiet top end... however got noisier again after a minute to a degree (still one bank worse than the other).
Once fully warmed up (oil temp that is), everythings golden. nice and quiet.
Interesting additional detail, while logging the warm up (still trying to iron out a cold start lean problem in the tune) one bank is trimming 10% more than the other. (bank with the clatter i'm presuming).
Once warmed and noise gone the trims come in line.
Leading me to believe that there must be some tolerance variance between the banks, and that the lifters are not fully doing there job until the oils fully upto temp.
Yet to try a lighter oil to see if that helps (5w-40 currently), or try a little more preload.
Or perhaps I may need to accept as normal
p.s just noticed the date (in US format). So apologies if i've resurrected an already stale thread
