Dropped sleeve issues............
Umm, as a person that has been screwed and unlucky numerous times (in everything), I've learned it never hurts to ask. Ask them to redo your heads, if they say no, present your case, argue a little (but not too much, gotta stay on their good side), and if that doesn't work, then fine, you've lost some of your time. If they say yes, hell yeah! Ask about labor, don't count on it, but at least ask. Just my opinion. Asking is free.
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From: St. Charles, MO
Originally Posted by Nine Ball
Good luck finding any manufacturer or vendor that will cover damages to other components, even if their product has been proven to cause the damage. This is how the performance automotive industry works, like it or not. Most of the warrantys out there are very generic, almost copy/paste of eachother, and 99% of them do not cover related damages.
If your valvespring broke and the valve dropped and put a hole in your piston, would you think the valvespring company would pay for your engine? Nope.
If your timing chain busted, and ruined all your valves and pistons, would the timing chain company pay for your engine? Nope.
They are only responsible for replacing or crediting the part(s) that failed in most cases. Several manufacturers won't even offer a warranty on race-designed parts or parts to be used in performance applications.
Labor charges are typically never recoverable. The only time I've seen labor covered is if a particular shop did the installation of a component, and the installation was found to be faulty afterwards. Lets say MTI installed the engine, and something was very wrong with the installation, they might opt to pay a shop up in MO to fix it, if it is cheaper than sending the car back. Thats about the only time I've ever seen labor recovered.
This is an expensive hobby, and you have to take many risks on your own. I'd never recommend anyone going into their own engines and doing major upgrades unless they can accept that risk if something happens.
If your valvespring broke and the valve dropped and put a hole in your piston, would you think the valvespring company would pay for your engine? Nope.
If your timing chain busted, and ruined all your valves and pistons, would the timing chain company pay for your engine? Nope.
They are only responsible for replacing or crediting the part(s) that failed in most cases. Several manufacturers won't even offer a warranty on race-designed parts or parts to be used in performance applications.
Labor charges are typically never recoverable. The only time I've seen labor covered is if a particular shop did the installation of a component, and the installation was found to be faulty afterwards. Lets say MTI installed the engine, and something was very wrong with the installation, they might opt to pay a shop up in MO to fix it, if it is cheaper than sending the car back. Thats about the only time I've ever seen labor recovered.
This is an expensive hobby, and you have to take many risks on your own. I'd never recommend anyone going into their own engines and doing major upgrades unless they can accept that risk if something happens.
Trust me I know this is an expensive hobby. The examples you gave are you referring to brand new parts? Everything I have is brand new. The parts all worked properly on the first motor except for the block leaking coolant. This combo has been built before so its not this is something new. The velve train is about as basic as you can get and the cam Im running is off the shelf. The reason for this thread was mainly to see if anyone else has even heard of a problem like this and to see what others would expect in my situation. MTI has been fair to me so far except for some communication problems. This is NOT a flame at them.
Originally Posted by DOC OTIS
Trust me I know this is an expensive hobby. The examples you gave are you referring to brand new parts? Everything I have is brand new. The parts all worked properly on the first motor except for the block leaking coolant. This combo has been built before so its not this is something new. The velve train is about as basic as you can get and the cam Im running is off the shelf. The reason for this thread was mainly to see if anyone else has even heard of a problem like this and to see what others would expect in my situation. MTI has been fair to me so far except for some communication problems. This is NOT a flame at them.
This is just a possibility, though. The amount removed is MINIMAL, about 0.005" I believe.
When you installed the heads, did you turn the crank over by hand to see if there was an contact b/w the valves/pistons?
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From: St. Charles, MO
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
That's weird you have bent exhaust valves, are they lower?
I have known of your problems for a while, I hope you are on the road soon.
Really one of Tony's posts nailed it, at the most it's just a matter of trying to get some goodwill from some of the companies involved in your longblock. Did you pressure test the heads or have them checked for leaks?
I have known of your problems for a while, I hope you are on the road soon.
Really one of Tony's posts nailed it, at the most it's just a matter of trying to get some goodwill from some of the companies involved in your longblock. Did you pressure test the heads or have them checked for leaks?
Last edited by DOC OTIS; May 25, 2004 at 02:47 PM.
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From: St. Charles, MO
Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
DOC, the Darton MID blocks are decked after the sleeves are installed. This would move your valves closer to your pistons if the amount removed during the decking process was not compensated for on the install of the heads/valvetrain.
This is just a possibility, though. The amount removed is MINIMAL, about 0.005" I believe.
When you installed the heads, did you turn the crank over by hand to see if there was an contact b/w the valves/pistons?
This is just a possibility, though. The amount removed is MINIMAL, about 0.005" I believe.
When you installed the heads, did you turn the crank over by hand to see if there was an contact b/w the valves/pistons?
Doc, I wonder if it's the YTs. Are you sure they're installed correctly? Were the valves hung open b/c the YT exhaust rocker arms were seized up (you said they were very hard to move)? I'm not familiar with the YT's design, hence my questions.
That's odd that all 8 would be open. If the valves were clearing when you bumped it over then I don't think you had PV contact and I believe it to be something with the rockers. Did you pull an exhaust valve out to check it for trueness?
That's odd that all 8 would be open. If the valves were clearing when you bumped it over then I don't think you had PV contact and I believe it to be something with the rockers. Did you pull an exhaust valve out to check it for trueness?
Originally Posted by DOC OTIS
Trust me I've already thought of that. This was the first thing I asked MTI was about the deck height. Even if it was decked .005 more than my original block I still would have plenty of clearence.
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From: St. Charles, MO
Originally Posted by DenzSS
Hey Doc,
I still can't imagine an exhaust valve warping from contact with the coolant. A 1300 degree exhaust valve getting quenched in a 200+ degree coolant/water mix isn't going to warp the valves. It just isn't possible within what metallurgy I know.
In one way or another you have had piston to valve contact. You may not have found it yet, but it must have happened. There is no way to take out your exhaust valves and exhaust rockers with a coolant bath. Out of all of the things I can think of occurring when a sleeve drops, this just isn't one of them.
I've dealt with a couple of dropped sleeve MTI engines, and neither had this issue. One engine had two cylinders repeatedly filled with coolant as we tested per MTI's requests. I know two cylinders were filled with coolant at least 3 times before the engine was shipped back to MTI. Sitting on top of this mess was a really nice set of Stage III LS6 heads and they were never damaged in the process. They are currently sitting on the new engine and pumping out a detuned 750hp.
Denzil
I still can't imagine an exhaust valve warping from contact with the coolant. A 1300 degree exhaust valve getting quenched in a 200+ degree coolant/water mix isn't going to warp the valves. It just isn't possible within what metallurgy I know.
In one way or another you have had piston to valve contact. You may not have found it yet, but it must have happened. There is no way to take out your exhaust valves and exhaust rockers with a coolant bath. Out of all of the things I can think of occurring when a sleeve drops, this just isn't one of them.
I've dealt with a couple of dropped sleeve MTI engines, and neither had this issue. One engine had two cylinders repeatedly filled with coolant as we tested per MTI's requests. I know two cylinders were filled with coolant at least 3 times before the engine was shipped back to MTI. Sitting on top of this mess was a really nice set of Stage III LS6 heads and they were never damaged in the process. They are currently sitting on the new engine and pumping out a detuned 750hp.
Denzil
hmm..... well I have no clue whats going on then. When I first called MTI they told me it was possible the coolant bent the valves. It sounds odd to me also but I am pretty confident the valves didnt make contact with the pistons (if they did there are no marks on the pistons or valves) therefore leaving the coolant as the only other possibility.
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From: St. Charles, MO
Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
You didn't mention it in your intial post that's why I mentioned it. I'm not trying to point a finger, just bringing about suggestions.
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From: St. Charles, MO
Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
Doc, I wonder if it's the YTs. Are you sure they're installed correctly? Were the valves hung open b/c the YT exhaust rocker arms were seized up (you said they were very hard to move)? I'm not familiar with the YT's design, hence my questions.
That's odd that all 8 would be open. If the valves were clearing when you bumped it over then I don't think you had PV contact and I believe it to be something with the rockers. Did you pull an exhaust valve out to check it for trueness?
That's odd that all 8 would be open. If the valves were clearing when you bumped it over then I don't think you had PV contact and I believe it to be something with the rockers. Did you pull an exhaust valve out to check it for trueness?
I think it's going to boil down to what they believe the cause of the valve train parts damage was and how well they want to take care of their customers. This is a perfect setup to see how they handle their customer's satisfaction, even though I agree with Tony. Please keep us posted and let us know!!!
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From: Kansas City, MO
Originally Posted by DOC OTIS
hmm..... well I have no clue whats going on then. When I first called MTI they told me it was possible the coolant bent the valves. It sounds odd to me also but I am pretty confident the valves didnt make contact with the pistons (if they did there are no marks on the pistons or valves) therefore leaving the coolant as the only other possibility.
"One drawback of an active mind is that one can always conceive alternate explanations which would make our scent a false one."
If you can eliminate every other possibility, then the coolant must have bent the valves. At this point I don't believe we have run out of possibilities.
I really can't see coolant bending all 8 exhaust valves unless you dropped all 8 sleeves or blew a head gasket in every cylinder. That is a uniform failure if all of them are screwed up, and dropped sleeves/bad gaskets are an isolated cylinder issue.
Maybe the valvesprings were weak and the engine was over-revved? Maybe the pushrods were too long on the exhaust side? Its got to be a mechanical issue.
Maybe the valvesprings were weak and the engine was over-revved? Maybe the pushrods were too long on the exhaust side? Its got to be a mechanical issue.
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From: St. Charles, MO
Originally Posted by Nine Ball
I really can't see coolant bending all 8 exhaust valves unless you dropped all 8 sleeves or blew a head gasket in every cylinder. That is a uniform failure if all of them are screwed up, and dropped sleeves/bad gaskets are an isolated cylinder issue.
Maybe the valvesprings were weak and the engine was over-revved? Maybe the pushrods were too long on the exhaust side? Its got to be a mechanical issue.
Maybe the valvesprings were weak and the engine was over-revved? Maybe the pushrods were too long on the exhaust side? Its got to be a mechanical issue.
I understand what your saying, and I agree it sounds very strange. The weird thing is why would it all sound/run good on the original motor? All of these parts are brand new and if something was defective it was from the factory. The engine saw one rev to about 5k and that was it so I dont think that could be the case. If there was geometry problem with the valve train I would of thought I would of noticed/heard something on the original motor. That is what is confusing me, it seemed to be perfect on the other motor. As far as what sleeves dropped I have no clue. I know the motor was burning coolant bad on both sides. I have no idea what caused the coolant to leak into the cylinders or how much actually got in there.
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Originally Posted by Nine Ball
Oh yeah, and to answer your question about coolant making the valves/rockers warp, I've never heard of anything like that ever happening before. If that were the case, anytime someone had a head gasket leak, they would have to replace the valves. We all know head gaskets have been blowing for decades. I've had two sleeved blocks fail, and seen several others fail/drop, and nobody has had this problem before.
If something physically bent the valves/rocker arms, I'd have to say there was mechanical contact. I'd also find that highly unlikely since you only have the exhaust valves/rockers damaged, typically it is the larger diameter intake valves which contact the pistons, not the exhaust valves. Besides, if you did drop a sleeve, and you claim the coolant warped the valves, then you would have had to drop all 8 sleeves if all 8 exhaust valves got bent. Since all of them were bent, I'd highly suspect clearance issues. If you had a sleeve or two drop, only the cylinders adjacent to the dropped sleeve should have suffered any damage based on your idea.
Could the heads have lower seats in the exhaust valve bowls? maybe they are positioned lower than normal in the heads?
If something physically bent the valves/rocker arms, I'd have to say there was mechanical contact. I'd also find that highly unlikely since you only have the exhaust valves/rockers damaged, typically it is the larger diameter intake valves which contact the pistons, not the exhaust valves. Besides, if you did drop a sleeve, and you claim the coolant warped the valves, then you would have had to drop all 8 sleeves if all 8 exhaust valves got bent. Since all of them were bent, I'd highly suspect clearance issues. If you had a sleeve or two drop, only the cylinders adjacent to the dropped sleeve should have suffered any damage based on your idea.
Could the heads have lower seats in the exhaust valve bowls? maybe they are positioned lower than normal in the heads?
Sounds like MTI is doing a good job working things out, hang tight and good luck.
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From: St. Charles, MO
Originally Posted by Nick Agostino
I agree, I have never seen anything in over 20 years of engine building like this. Check closer for some type of mechanical interf. between the valves and pistons. I have seen heads with tight valve guides do the same thing, they destroy the rockers, hang the valves open and the piston doesn't need much to bend them out of the way. If the valve relief is on the exact angle of the valve and it hits square, it may not leave a very evident mark in the piston; also look at the back of the valve relief where the radiuis in the cutter was as it can be a great hiding place for valve contact.
Sounds like MTI is doing a good job working things out, hang tight and good luck.
Sounds like MTI is doing a good job working things out, hang tight and good luck.
MTI originally told me that the coolant could of bent/warped the valves, but at that time I didn't know all of them were bent. I called them when I was trying to fire it (which wasnt working to well with 8 bent valves,lol) and that was a possibility they threw out there. Since I had no problems on the first motor I ruled the heads out as being the problem. Hopefully they will find something when they tear the heads apart. What you are saying about the guides has got me thinking. These heads were fresh when they went on the fisrt motor. Is it possible the guides could be the culprit even if the first motor ran fine? If it is a guide problem will there be evidence when the heads are taken apart that shows the valve guides were to tight?
Definitely not suprising I would run into something nobody has ever heard of
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Well, I agree with the general opinion on this forum. The manufacturer is not responsible for consequential (sp) damages. That said, if (and I mean if) they find out the coolant some how did cause this problem they might try and help you out just as a sign of good faith and to promote a good customer service reputation. An example of this is I purchased a brand new torque converter and installed it in a freshly rebuilt tranny, the hub on the converter was apparently welded onto the housing crooked which eventually wore out my front bushing, pump and eventually spit out the front seal. The tranny had to be completely rebuilt again, do you think the converter company paid for the rebuild, no. They did warranty the converter and sent me a new one. The other issue of coolant causing the bent valves is also hard for me to believe, but I quess many things are possible. I do know that when motors are over revved and experience valve float, it is usually the exhaust that gets bent since it is being chased by the piston on its way back to the valve seat.
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From: Columbia Mo
Damn Doc that sucks... I was really hoping that of the 3 of us and the 5 blocks from MTI that at least 1 of them were right 
All I can say is after what the 3 of us have seen from MTI it is beyond me why anyone would do business with them. The way I see it is they owe me at least 1 new LS6 block because after they screwed up multiple times on the new LS6 block I had no choice but to buy a C5R block. These are the first hand issues I know with MTi and the list of others I know second hand is unreal and there is no way its just bad luck with 5 straight blocks being a POS 
All I can say is after what the 3 of us have seen from MTI it is beyond me why anyone would do business with them. The way I see it is they owe me at least 1 new LS6 block because after they screwed up multiple times on the new LS6 block I had no choice but to buy a C5R block. These are the first hand issues I know with MTi and the list of others I know second hand is unreal and there is no way its just bad luck with 5 straight blocks being a POS