I have a feeling those emoticons in no way are an accurate representation

 

Yes that would be an install issue.

If the cam was way off it could cause PtoV contact but normally when that happens you wont even be able to start the car.

It'll sound like a machine gun and then likely not start at all.

 

Well it was way off, but since he has over .200 when its straight up it actually didnt hit them that bad but it did leave slight eyebrows on the pistons

 

I thought he said there was no evidence of PtoV contact?

How much were the heads milled? What springs? valvefloat or a missed shift can cause the same problem.

Who verified the cam was off? MTI?

 

We did, look the car never started the cam is off, not degreed wrong,(NOT DEGREED AT ALL )I'm talking like 4 teeth off They didn't even bring it up to TDC before they installed the cam gear a professional engine bulider that doesn't degree a camshaft what the hell kind of **** is that. I'll say one more thing this whole deal has been going on for at least 8 months, way to long ,the poor guy can't even get the car out of the garage,and spent $8000.00 dollars on this shortblock that somebody can't put together 2 times now ,not 1 time, 2 times now, now thats why everyone is pissed. I mean come on even if they had a bad block the first time fine okay I would do everthing in my power to triple check the next motor to make sure that everthing was perfect for the guy,(DOC) because he is already pissed, does anyone know if we all weren't friends, and didn't help DOC out what his labor bill would be to do all of this twice HUGE. THE CAM IS IN WRONG HOPEFULLY EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE MOTOR IS FINE EXCEPT FOR THE NICKS IN THE PISTONS, END OF STORY . I hope they rectify this one because frankly I'm tired of working on the car.

 

It doesn't matter if the head was milled 800 thousands the cam is 4 teeth off.

The springs are brand new like was stated earlier ,misshift? pretty hard to do with a turbo 400 on jackstands valvefloat? unless they float at 2500 rpms look the cam is in wrong I've seen it with my own eyes unbelievable YES but it is! The first time the motor ran with the dry block, all they did was switch parts to a different block thats it, the combo ran for 45 minutes before, only problem being dropped sleeves.

MTI verify that the cam is off ????

I can't believe Doc isn't more pissed off than he is, its just uncalled for!

 

When the cam gears are dot to dot and the piston isnt tdc........ITS OFF. exspecially when they were told to put it int straight up. We dont need a shop to tell us the cam is in wrong, we've done this a few times



Also when he said there was no evidence of ptov hitting, he was thinking that there was noway a shop like that could have screwed that up, so we were trying our hardest to figure out what else it could have been when we should have just looked at the obvious After we foung out that was for sure what causeed this problem then we took a good look at the piston's and sure enough there is definate eyebrows but you cant see them with out a good light shining on

 

I am not an engine builder, and when initially looking at the pistons and valves, did not notice that they hit. At the time I was almost sure of that but I was obvisouly mistaken, good thing I don't build motors for a living.

The pistons are brand new and are still very shinny and you can still see the machine marks on the tops of them, which where the valves made contact blends in with the machine marks on the pistons very well. I just didn't inspect these parts very close at first because I knew all the valve train was right, and couldn't fathom the idea of the cam not being in correctly. So naturally I was trying to find other reasons why the valves were bent.

 

I hate to break it to you, but the crank gear can not be 4 teeth off and the dots still line up. Either you are looking at the wrong marks, or the timing set is machined incorrectly. Granted, if the timing set is fubarred, it should have been caught when it was degreed, but honestly I have never seen one off that badly and I have seen and used many of them. If it is a multiple keyway crank gear, there are multiple marks. One of them marks the keyway, the other similar mark is the alignment mark. Good luck, and hope you get it figured out.

 

I don't understand what your saying? If I line the dots up the #1 piston is around 1.700 down in the cylinder. As far as the mark on the snout of the crank gear that is supposed to line up with the key way, it doesn't. The mechanic that I paid to originally degree the cam in said it was off but that it was fine and the cam was in straight up (which it was in correctly cause the original motor fired right up and ran smoothly), so I wasn't worried about the mark on the snout of the crank sprocket. I would assume when the crank was taken out of the old motor and installed in the new motor the crank sprocket was left on, which is fine, cause it looks like it is in the same position as before. I am guessing the chain was put on and lined up with out the motor at TDC, at least thats the best guess I have to how this happened.

Does that make better sense?

 

What timing gear set are you running, does it have multiple keyways? Do you have an adjustable cam gear or have the cam bolt holes been slotted (elongated) to allow the cam to be moved in relation to the cam gear? If your timing set does not have any of these things, then if it is installed to where you can turn the motor over and get the marks dot to dot, then the timing set is installed correctly. That does not meam it was manufactured correctly though. Usually when someone "degrees" a xcamshaft they are really only checking to verify the cam was ground correctly and the gear set is correct, unless they have an adjustable cam gear. On the older chevy's the dots are actually dot to dot on the exhaust stroke not the compression stroke (not sure about the LS1). If the timing set was installed several teeth off as suggested in some of the earlier post, you would never be able to get the dots to line up. When the dot on the crank gear was pointing straight up. the one on the cam gear would be, well, several teeth off. Do you see what I am saying?

 

So let me get this straight. You knew the markings on the gears were wrong. You didn't tell the people reassembling your motor that. They probably didn't double check and just used the markings as a guide (sloppy - but will working most of the time). You got it back and finished putting it together and still didn't check, then went to start it and grenaded? Sounds like this is an excellent case regarding checks and double checks of everything when you have an engine apart. Also sounds like you knew you had a problem w/ the gear and didn't tell the builder - I hope they help you out, but I'm not sure after your last post if they are completely at fault .
Dan

 

There is nothing wrong with the chain. The cam was supposed to be degreed and it wasn't. I didn't have a problem with the gear - the motor ran fine when my guy degreed the cam.

 

It is a rollmaster timing chain (double roller). I have not put this gear set on yet, so I have no idea where the adjustments are made. By looking at it there are a bunch of keyways on the crank gear, and the cam gear can only go on one way, by the looks of it.

 

I disagree with you. I've built around 15 different LS1 engines and never degreed any cams in them. The cams are ground with the proper amount of advance in them, you simply install the cam and line up the sprockets dot to dot.

No need to degree a camshaft that is properly machined, when using a timing chain set that is accurately marked.

MTI cams are always designed and installed "dot to dot", not by using a degree wheel.

 

Doc Pm me on this board or the MO board, I have some information you need to see.


For the record.
MTI did the same shotty work on my motor which includes undocumented machine work to cover for their poor work and they even used the same bearings in the new motor that were in the 2 previous dropped sleeve motors they sent me. Jayson sent me an email after I posted above and stated they Have a new COO coming in that saw the post I made. Jayson wanted to let me know that MTI wants us all to be satisfied... I listed my concerns and received nothing back in response. Doc myself and one other person ordered our 427s at the same time and ALL of them were junk I had 2 come in and drop a sleeve and the 3rd had a 1/16 gouge in a cyl wall. I gave up and orderd the C5R block from MTI to get this nightmare to an end. I was told they had milled on my pistons in an attempt to fix the first block, they also used the same bearings and rings from the first attempts where water had entered the oil due to dropped sleeves. When I was told that there was nothing I could do except wait for their new CNC equipment and for them to work out the Darton process of buy a C5R I took the bullet and went C5R. I was told by MTI that they decked the block (no specifications) and that they would do nothing about rings and bearings but they would be fine. I was just out the new LS6 block I bought and basiclly had to take what they offered period. I know what Doc Ron and Myself have been through and if MTI really wanted to make it right they would have done so by now.

Jayson and David if you really want to stand up and make it right I am sure ALL of us here want to see it!!! All we want is to trust that a shop will be there after the sale and will support their products the way we have supported the shop.

Matt

 

Let me make this simple. I am not an engine builder, that is why I paid to have the block assemblied. I sent them a perfectly good running short-block(minus the sleeve problem). If there were problems with the way the chain was marked i had no clue.

 

Are you freaking kidding me, maybe thats there problem, They make degree wheels for a reason. Ok how about this, would you check to see if the PISTON IS UP BEFORE YOU PUT IT DOT TO DOT. If you dont want to use a degree wheel then thats fine, BUT ATLEAST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE TDC BEFORE YOU LINE IT UP DOT TO DOT. This is unbelievable what some of you are saying

 

That just rediculas, do we need to tell them what to torque the rod bolts to also?

 

If this motor bent all the exhaust valves the cam was potentially:
A. Not degreed right
B. Floated the valves
C. Broke a timing chain
D. Was overrevved

Was there a particular reply where someone looked at what would be going on for the exhaust valves to be bent and not the intake valves?