Ordered Mast Small Bore LS3's
Fly cut the Pistons, mill the heads to net you 12:1 and let it eat! I doubt you'll lose a thing under 4k at that point. Wait until the new fast or the MSD come out and the let it breathe! Congrats! Can't wait to see the results!
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,717
Likes: 24
From: Lafayette, LA
Depends on who you talk to. On here, yes.
Speaking with, in my opinion, two of some of the highest regarded cylinder head guys in the business, they'd PREFER bronze. Yes you might eventually wear them out, but the wear rate is the same; slow and controlled. On a powdered metal guide, once it starts, it accelerates QUICKLY. Either way, the stands will be milled if needed to achieve proper geometry. I've also been told there's different types of bronze that are used in different heads. I'll leave it at that
With the valve angle I don't think I'll need to touch the pistons. And I'm just hoping the MSD fits under the cowl. It's taller then the Fast, which is bad news for us C5 guys...
I'm going to run whatever gasket and head cc I get told to by my cam / valvetrain guy. We're both EXTREMELY confident in my tuner 
Speaking with, in my opinion, two of some of the highest regarded cylinder head guys in the business, they'd PREFER bronze. Yes you might eventually wear them out, but the wear rate is the same; slow and controlled. On a powdered metal guide, once it starts, it accelerates QUICKLY. Either way, the stands will be milled if needed to achieve proper geometry. I've also been told there's different types of bronze that are used in different heads. I'll leave it at that
I was also told by a local LSx builder that bronze guides were fine. I never mention it because anytime you think outside the box on this forum you get flamed...well unless you are mod. 
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,717
Likes: 24
From: Lafayette, LA
My name being green doesn't mean **** 
Trust me; It's harder having an opinion or "thought out loud" bc as a greenie you're more quick to get called out, lol
KCS has literally built more engines than I've changed oil in all the cars I've owned. I HIGHLY value and respect him. I'm simply relaying what I've been told by a few high dollar head designers.
I learn A LOT here. I also keep an open mind. I don't "strictly" rely on the internet for everything I need to know. I pick up the phone, or drive and visit, with the latter being the more fun part
Trust me; It's harder having an opinion or "thought out loud" bc as a greenie you're more quick to get called out, lol
KCS has literally built more engines than I've changed oil in all the cars I've owned. I HIGHLY value and respect him. I'm simply relaying what I've been told by a few high dollar head designers.
I learn A LOT here. I also keep an open mind. I don't "strictly" rely on the internet for everything I need to know. I pick up the phone, or drive and visit, with the latter being the more fun part
Same here...I was just agreeing with your post. I agree KCS knows far more about building engines then I do. That is why I have never mentioned anything about using stock rockers with bronze guides even though I have been told it was fine by other LSx builders(over the phone).
Btw congrats on your purchase. Look forward to the build.
Btw congrats on your purchase. Look forward to the build.
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As far as the bronze guide issue there are so many factors that apply. They tend to cool better and have enhanced lubricity however the seal ultimately determines how much oil it gets. You want enough but not too much and today's fuels are just SO clean and dry.
I thought Tooley felt the stock rocker met it's match at about .570"-.580" actual valve lift before it begins to scrub the valve tip. After all the deflections present most 600 range camshafts probably only move the valve this far. IMO .620"-.650" range would mandate nice true rollers.
Watching that spintron video also shows how much havoc goes on with the spring surge, valve bounce, and deflection when float occurs. Seven grand IIRC equals like 58 times/sec that each valve opens/closes. Again why a properly set up valvetrain matters so much and often shows up in that flat/smooth torque band.
One of Mamo's statements was "a compression trapping machine". Very true and I'm sure he meant much more than the static calculation.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,717
Likes: 24
From: Lafayette, LA
I'm looking HARD at a set of Jesel's or Crower's. If that's the case, I might as well go solid roller...
Who knows. There's a lot up in the air guys. It's fun knowing they're ordered and being shipped and I can start ACTUALLY thinking about and peicing together the rest of the build.
Who knows. There's a lot up in the air guys. It's fun knowing they're ordered and being shipped and I can start ACTUALLY thinking about and peicing together the rest of the build.
I'm looking HARD at a set of Jesel's or Crower's. If that's the case, I might as well go solid roller...
Who knows. There's a lot up in the air guys. It's fun knowing they're ordered and being shipped and I can start ACTUALLY thinking about and peicing together the rest of the build.
Who knows. There's a lot up in the air guys. It's fun knowing they're ordered and being shipped and I can start ACTUALLY thinking about and peicing together the rest of the build.
Depends on who you talk to. On here, yes.
Speaking with, in my opinion, two of some of the highest regarded cylinder head guys in the business, they'd PREFER bronze. Yes you might eventually wear them out, but the wear rate is the same; slow and controlled. On a powdered metal guide, once it starts, it accelerates QUICKLY. Either way, the stands will be milled if needed to achieve proper geometry. I've also been told there's different types of bronze that are used in different heads. I'll leave it at that
Speaking with, in my opinion, two of some of the highest regarded cylinder head guys in the business, they'd PREFER bronze. Yes you might eventually wear them out, but the wear rate is the same; slow and controlled. On a powdered metal guide, once it starts, it accelerates QUICKLY. Either way, the stands will be milled if needed to achieve proper geometry. I've also been told there's different types of bronze that are used in different heads. I'll leave it at that
I just got a set of Trickflow heads so I've been doing my homework on the subject. Seems like it was a big deal on the old TFS heads as the geometry was different, but now the geometry has been "corrected" and it is more stock rocker friendly. I plan on running as much lift as I can on a stock length valve, so I'll be going with a roller tip anyways. I don't think a stock rocker will play nice with .700" valve lift.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,802
Likes: 332
From: Wilmington, De
I don't disagree with anything you just said, lol.
I just got a set of Trickflow heads so I've been doing my homework on the subject. Seems like it was a big deal on the old TFS heads as the geometry was different, but now the geometry has been "corrected" and it is more stock rocker friendly. I plan on running as much lift as I can on a stock length valve, so I'll be going with a roller tip anyways. I don't think a stock rocker will play nice with .700" valve lift.
I just got a set of Trickflow heads so I've been doing my homework on the subject. Seems like it was a big deal on the old TFS heads as the geometry was different, but now the geometry has been "corrected" and it is more stock rocker friendly. I plan on running as much lift as I can on a stock length valve, so I'll be going with a roller tip anyways. I don't think a stock rocker will play nice with .700" valve lift.
I just wish that someone would introduce affordable stainless roller rockers in a 1.7 ratio. I never cared for aluminum rockers.
poopy cell pics but thought id share a couple, stock valve vs 5.450 5/16 stem valves, psi 1511's vs k motion k800's, they are some heavy heads. stock 243 head i have lying around feels like its half the weight after holding the masts
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,717
Likes: 24
From: Lafayette, LA
Those are some nice pics! Thanks! The valve difference certainly is substantial.
I don't get off the rig till the 30th, then I'll go pick mine up. I'll be sure to post all I can as well.
Talking to Brian now about those cryo-treated and micro polished LS3 rockers. Also scouring different sites for an LS3 intake with rails and injectors.
I wouldn't mind sending it to Peak Speed for radical porting...
I don't get off the rig till the 30th, then I'll go pick mine up. I'll be sure to post all I can as well.
Talking to Brian now about those cryo-treated and micro polished LS3 rockers. Also scouring different sites for an LS3 intake with rails and injectors.
I wouldn't mind sending it to Peak Speed for radical porting...
I think I paid 250 shipped for my ls3 intake from ws6store, the rail I'm gonna transfer over from my fast 102 setup. I've had 2 cams spec'd out pat g being one and martin@tick being the other. I see at least another 700 plus or minus on the cam/head bolts/gaskets/map sensor/tune.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,717
Likes: 24
From: Lafayette, LA
I think I paid 250 shipped for my ls3 intake from ws6store, the rail I'm gonna transfer over from my fast 102 setup. I've had 2 cams spec'd out pat g being one and martin@tick being the other. I see at least another 700 plus or minus on the cam/head bolts/gaskets/map sensor/tune.
By the time I'm ready, I very well may have a medium runner Fast or MSD intake with a NW 102.