MMS 220 Build for "Ghost Hawk"
07-02-2016, 03:37 PM
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07-05-2016, 11:38 AM
#402
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Well, some tuning info for those of you who like the nerdy side of this:
1. End of Injection Timing. The exhaust was smelling simultaneously rich and lean. Sort of figured out that fuel was bypassing out the tail pipe, causing a fuel smell but lean combustion. Moved EOIT Normal from 6.19 to 6.24, then 6.29, and now 6.34. Lean smell and eyes burning thing are gone. Still some fuel smell, but not near as much. Most of my trims are going negative in the lower RPMs, which is telling me that more fuel is being trapped in the cylinder.
2. The idle MAP reading went from 50-55 KPa to 65 KPa. At first I thought vacuum leak, but it idles nice and stable (well, for a cammed V8). But the higher idle vacuum sort of messes with the VE and dynamic airflow at the low end. Deep deceleration is in the 40-KPa range now. What this does is when I run the RussK idle air config, I get mixed results. If I log commanded air, the base idle air is too low, resulting in stalling out in parking lots, etc. If I log dynamic air, the lower temperature air is too low, and it won't start for ****. What I ended up doing is logging BOTH commanded air and dynamic air and using the higher of the two values in the Base RAF table at each temperature point.
---example: At 32 degrees, commanded air was 20-g and dynamic air was 13-g, so I entered 20-g in the 32 degree cell. At 80 degrees, dynamic air was 11.6-g and commanded air was 8.7, so I used 11.6-g in the 80 degree cell. This worked quite well.
3. Added three degrees timing in the off idle regions, which helped quite a lot with clutch engagement, but still difficult to gently engage clutch. At this point, I think this is gearing related. I'm still on stock gears, and this cam doesn't like it very much. Going from 3.42 to 4.11 will give 20% more RWTQ to get the car moving at the low end.
4. There's this weird sputtering phenomenon in the 2500-3000 rpm range. From 1500 to 2500 its very smooth. Hits 2500 and sputters almost like its flooding. In the logs, I'm seeing some high negative trims in the 2800 RPM column under partial throttle, so I guess this makes sense. I think this is also affecting timing, but I can't explain how - mainly due to the g/sec calculations. Thankfully 3.2 was released with RTT, so that should make shorter work of the VE table.
5. I don't know if this is surprising or not, but the MAF isn't actually that far off. None of the trims are worse than 6% out. Most are 0-3%.
I will say this - It's much easier going from one performance cam / valvetrain to another than it is going from a stock cam to a performance cam. Much finer adjustments overall. Really gives you an appreciation for what the good tuners are able to do when they encounter so many set ups all the time.
1. End of Injection Timing. The exhaust was smelling simultaneously rich and lean. Sort of figured out that fuel was bypassing out the tail pipe, causing a fuel smell but lean combustion. Moved EOIT Normal from 6.19 to 6.24, then 6.29, and now 6.34. Lean smell and eyes burning thing are gone. Still some fuel smell, but not near as much. Most of my trims are going negative in the lower RPMs, which is telling me that more fuel is being trapped in the cylinder.
2. The idle MAP reading went from 50-55 KPa to 65 KPa. At first I thought vacuum leak, but it idles nice and stable (well, for a cammed V8). But the higher idle vacuum sort of messes with the VE and dynamic airflow at the low end. Deep deceleration is in the 40-KPa range now. What this does is when I run the RussK idle air config, I get mixed results. If I log commanded air, the base idle air is too low, resulting in stalling out in parking lots, etc. If I log dynamic air, the lower temperature air is too low, and it won't start for ****. What I ended up doing is logging BOTH commanded air and dynamic air and using the higher of the two values in the Base RAF table at each temperature point.
---example: At 32 degrees, commanded air was 20-g and dynamic air was 13-g, so I entered 20-g in the 32 degree cell. At 80 degrees, dynamic air was 11.6-g and commanded air was 8.7, so I used 11.6-g in the 80 degree cell. This worked quite well.
3. Added three degrees timing in the off idle regions, which helped quite a lot with clutch engagement, but still difficult to gently engage clutch. At this point, I think this is gearing related. I'm still on stock gears, and this cam doesn't like it very much. Going from 3.42 to 4.11 will give 20% more RWTQ to get the car moving at the low end.
4. There's this weird sputtering phenomenon in the 2500-3000 rpm range. From 1500 to 2500 its very smooth. Hits 2500 and sputters almost like its flooding. In the logs, I'm seeing some high negative trims in the 2800 RPM column under partial throttle, so I guess this makes sense. I think this is also affecting timing, but I can't explain how - mainly due to the g/sec calculations. Thankfully 3.2 was released with RTT, so that should make shorter work of the VE table.
5. I don't know if this is surprising or not, but the MAF isn't actually that far off. None of the trims are worse than 6% out. Most are 0-3%.
I will say this - It's much easier going from one performance cam / valvetrain to another than it is going from a stock cam to a performance cam. Much finer adjustments overall. Really gives you an appreciation for what the good tuners are able to do when they encounter so many set ups all the time.
07-06-2016, 05:26 PM
#403
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Well, I think I solved the sputtering issue, and it was because I'm stupid.
Since the fuel trims were showing really good (other than 2800 rpm), I figured the cam hadn't messed up the fueling too much. Couldn't have been more wronger. I disabled the MAF, and the fueling went severely negative on the fuel trims in SD mode. Took me eight different logs to get the trims to get back down into the +/- 3 range.
So, this caused two consequences:
1. the calculated g/cyl was high, so it was referencing the wrong rows in the spark table. Typically, it was reading the next row down, which during partial throttle resulted in retarding the timing a few degrees from where I wanted it. Example, I had dynamic airflow in SD mode at 16 g/sec, but 13 g/sec on the MAF. Pretty far off.
2. During non-steady state, the dynamic air goes off the VE table, and as a result, it was flooding. Above 3500, the VE table was pretty close, and it switched to MAF mode, so it would resolve itself at higher RPM.
Since the fuel trims were showing really good (other than 2800 rpm), I figured the cam hadn't messed up the fueling too much. Couldn't have been more wronger. I disabled the MAF, and the fueling went severely negative on the fuel trims in SD mode. Took me eight different logs to get the trims to get back down into the +/- 3 range.
So, this caused two consequences:
1. the calculated g/cyl was high, so it was referencing the wrong rows in the spark table. Typically, it was reading the next row down, which during partial throttle resulted in retarding the timing a few degrees from where I wanted it. Example, I had dynamic airflow in SD mode at 16 g/sec, but 13 g/sec on the MAF. Pretty far off.
2. During non-steady state, the dynamic air goes off the VE table, and as a result, it was flooding. Above 3500, the VE table was pretty close, and it switched to MAF mode, so it would resolve itself at higher RPM.
07-06-2016, 10:05 PM
#405
Well, I think I solved the sputtering issue, and it was because I'm stupid.
Since the fuel trims were showing really good (other than 2800 rpm), I figured the cam hadn't messed up the fueling too much. Couldn't have been more wronger. I disabled the MAF, and the fueling went severely negative on the fuel trims in SD mode. Took me eight different logs to get the trims to get back down into the +/- 3 range.
So, this caused two consequences:
1. the calculated g/cyl was high, so it was referencing the wrong rows in the spark table. Typically, it was reading the next row down, which during partial throttle resulted in retarding the timing a few degrees from where I wanted it. Example, I had dynamic airflow in SD mode at 16 g/sec, but 13 g/sec on the MAF. Pretty far off.
2. During non-steady state, the dynamic air goes off the VE table, and as a result, it was flooding. Above 3500, the VE table was pretty close, and it switched to MAF mode, so it would resolve itself at higher RPM.
Since the fuel trims were showing really good (other than 2800 rpm), I figured the cam hadn't messed up the fueling too much. Couldn't have been more wronger. I disabled the MAF, and the fueling went severely negative on the fuel trims in SD mode. Took me eight different logs to get the trims to get back down into the +/- 3 range.
So, this caused two consequences:
1. the calculated g/cyl was high, so it was referencing the wrong rows in the spark table. Typically, it was reading the next row down, which during partial throttle resulted in retarding the timing a few degrees from where I wanted it. Example, I had dynamic airflow in SD mode at 16 g/sec, but 13 g/sec on the MAF. Pretty far off.
2. During non-steady state, the dynamic air goes off the VE table, and as a result, it was flooding. Above 3500, the VE table was pretty close, and it switched to MAF mode, so it would resolve itself at higher RPM.
Thought things were good till I failed the MAF......
07-30-2016, 12:10 PM
#406
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Wish I had the cash to do a build like this. While I got to do H/C/I I couldn't go with all top shelf stuff like this. Been checking in on this thread every month or so just to see what's up. Great thread and lots of great info in here. Thanks Darth!!
08-02-2016, 06:30 PM
#407
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Thanks Mike!! A little side bar but I got to drive the car to meet Tony yesterday, let him see the car, make suggestions, etc.
So the good -- Tony's freaking cool as ****! Saw the bat cave, hung out, I drove one of his cars, he drove mine. Overall, his C6z is roughly 470 to the tires. Both our cars are stock gears, but his is at least 300 pound lighter. It was close between the two but the z is overall a bit faster. Just more available torque on the upshift. Overall, I sort of felt like the motor is as good as it's gonna get and stay streetable, so at this point focus on parasitic losses. He agreed. From a 30 mph roll it hooked great every time. Overall, he seemed happy with the tune.
The bad -- the tires and wheels are very heavy and somewhat holding it back. When I get home imma weigh the tires and wheels to see what I got. I don't think Tony liked the tight clutch window as much as I do. Although that Z was so much easier to drive, got to admit. Also I don't think he knew how loud kooks were until yesterday.
The ugly -- rear is dying fast. Tony put it like trying to steer a boat. You can hear and feel the rear in bad shape. I knew that driving it out, but at least I know it wasn't in my head. I would describe as bump steer for rear axle. But it's coming soon. I've just got to focus on the chassis and get that right before I do much else.
If you're considering high end heads, you've really got to give Tony a good hard look. We built this motor a year ago last week and we still catch up, talk ****, etc. none of the tips he gave me last night had anything to do with stuff he sells. he's with you long after the sale. That's worth a lot.
So the good -- Tony's freaking cool as ****! Saw the bat cave, hung out, I drove one of his cars, he drove mine. Overall, his C6z is roughly 470 to the tires. Both our cars are stock gears, but his is at least 300 pound lighter. It was close between the two but the z is overall a bit faster. Just more available torque on the upshift. Overall, I sort of felt like the motor is as good as it's gonna get and stay streetable, so at this point focus on parasitic losses. He agreed. From a 30 mph roll it hooked great every time. Overall, he seemed happy with the tune.
The bad -- the tires and wheels are very heavy and somewhat holding it back. When I get home imma weigh the tires and wheels to see what I got. I don't think Tony liked the tight clutch window as much as I do. Although that Z was so much easier to drive, got to admit. Also I don't think he knew how loud kooks were until yesterday.
The ugly -- rear is dying fast. Tony put it like trying to steer a boat. You can hear and feel the rear in bad shape. I knew that driving it out, but at least I know it wasn't in my head. I would describe as bump steer for rear axle. But it's coming soon. I've just got to focus on the chassis and get that right before I do much else.
If you're considering high end heads, you've really got to give Tony a good hard look. We built this motor a year ago last week and we still catch up, talk ****, etc. none of the tips he gave me last night had anything to do with stuff he sells. he's with you long after the sale. That's worth a lot.
Last edited by Darth_V8r; 08-02-2016 at 10:39 PM.
08-02-2016, 08:01 PM
#409
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That's where I got a little sideways. Instead of buying top shelf heads from a guy like Tony, I split up the money and addressed the rear from the get go. It got expensive fast. Lol. H/C/I, narrowed S60 (and all the **** that goes with that), wheels and tires, 92/92 set up, clutch w/ Tick Master and MGW shifter, and full bolt ons in one shot. I just couldn't stomach spending even a little more on the heads. I like my TFS 220s but wish I would have sucked it up and gone with something from Mamo. Maybe next time.
Great build Darth. Let us know what rear you go with. I know there are a ton of sponsors with tons of options but I would at least recommend speaking to Carl at CRP. Really great cat. We spent an hour on the phone going over goals and trading racing stories. My $.02
Great build Darth. Let us know what rear you go with. I know there are a ton of sponsors with tons of options but I would at least recommend speaking to Carl at CRP. Really great cat. We spent an hour on the phone going over goals and trading racing stories. My $.02
08-02-2016, 09:51 PM
#410
Awesome Darth!!! You definitely got one bad *** build. Can't wait to see your dyno numbers and track times after the new rear of course 
What do you think of the clutch window? Would you do the smaller bore Tick Master cylinder or a stock master instead? Or do you like the small window?
What do you think of the clutch window? Would you do the smaller bore Tick Master cylinder or a stock master instead? Or do you like the small window?
08-02-2016, 10:48 PM
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Thanks guys!
I got one coming from Burkhart Chassis. There was honestly nothing against anyone, they were able to turn it around the fastest. I've known for some time it was on borrowed time. When I got the AC running good and shut the windows I heard just how bad the axle is. On a shallow hill, the car won't roll on its own. I'll be the first ever to GAIN hp going to a nine inch. Also got some front end stuff coming from them too. The chassis has needed the attention.
Mike IMO you did it right. Next one I build, the first things I do are the front k, rear axle, and subframe connectors.
Aaron and Brew, on the clutch I used to really like the narrow window. Driving the car in rush hour for a total of 6 hours in two days. Has made me rethink it. If you plan to street drive, I'd give a second look to the 3/4 master.
I got one coming from Burkhart Chassis. There was honestly nothing against anyone, they were able to turn it around the fastest. I've known for some time it was on borrowed time. When I got the AC running good and shut the windows I heard just how bad the axle is. On a shallow hill, the car won't roll on its own. I'll be the first ever to GAIN hp going to a nine inch. Also got some front end stuff coming from them too. The chassis has needed the attention.
Mike IMO you did it right. Next one I build, the first things I do are the front k, rear axle, and subframe connectors.
Aaron and Brew, on the clutch I used to really like the narrow window. Driving the car in rush hour for a total of 6 hours in two days. Has made me rethink it. If you plan to street drive, I'd give a second look to the 3/4 master.
08-03-2016, 10:55 AM
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08-03-2016, 09:31 PM
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That's awesome man! I would love to drive out to California and show Tony my car. I'd love to hear his recommendations. To be honest, I'm kind of bored with my car, but I think that's because it's an auto. This is the first stalled auto I have ever built, and I don't think its for me. I miss banging the gears and shifting when I want to!
08-04-2016, 12:00 AM
#415
Originally Posted by 5_litre_eater
That's awesome man! I would love to drive out to California and show Tony my car. I'd love to hear his recommendations. To be honest, I'm kind of bored with my car, but I think that's because it's an auto. This is the first stalled auto I have ever built, and I don't think its for me. I miss banging the gears and shifting when I want to!
08-04-2016, 08:22 AM
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Yep. Thats one reason I sold my stalled auto and bought the M6 I have now. Just dont spend much time at the track anymore and the manual is just more engaging to drive IMO.
08-04-2016, 10:44 AM
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I think driving a manual, you get that reset and your head bangs on the head rest every shift so you feel everything. In the auto, you get used to the pull so you don't feel it as much. Like a plane taking off. You adapt to the constant g force.
Make no mistake, the auto IS faster. That said, I like a man pedal. I do feel more in tune with the car
08-06-2016, 12:32 PM
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Darth, I've been closely following your build thread. I just picked up a set of Mamo 223 heads from Tony for my little engine that could build (LS2). I would agree that Tony is a cool guy and his knowledge speaks volumes. This is why I purchased a set of his Yella Terra rockers for proper valve geometry.
08-06-2016, 03:14 PM
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Darth, I've been closely following your build thread. I just picked up a set of Mamo 223 heads from Tony for my little engine that could build (LS2). I would agree that Tony is a cool guy and his knowledge speaks volumes. This is why I purchased a set of his Yella Terra rockers for proper valve geometry.
In other news the housing on the diff was cracked and it's filled with metal/oil mud. New one should ship Monday from burkhart. Talk about timing! On Wednesday I drove it two miles after getting back from LA, and it was like driving on square tires
08-06-2016, 04:27 PM
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Darth did you ever get a CF Driveshaft?
The Bat Cave is VERY COOL! I haven't driven the Z but did
Get to drive the "V" from the tuner in Fremont to Abel
In Rio Vista what a ROCKET SHIP, punched it on the Highway
@ 60 broke the tires loose and was at 120 seemed like a
Blink, less than 5 seconds for sure!
The Bat Cave is VERY COOL! I haven't driven the Z but did
Get to drive the "V" from the tuner in Fremont to Abel
In Rio Vista what a ROCKET SHIP, punched it on the Highway
@ 60 broke the tires loose and was at 120 seemed like a
Blink, less than 5 seconds for sure!