MMS 220 Build for "Ghost Hawk"
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Joined: Jul 2014
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From: My own internal universe
I'm assuming that it does require a break in, but I have to tell you, this clutch is phenomenal. My pedal pressure is back to close to stock. It might be a tad higher due to the larger Tick master bore, but far lighter than the monster S3 pedal was.
And let me take a moment to say this - the Monster S3 is a solid clutch. What I pulled out after 15,000 miles still has plenty of miles on it. I'm keeping it as an emergency spare. For those of you looking for a clutch that can hold the power and are willing to live with a heavier pedal and some chatter, it's a good option. My wife just didn't like driving it, which was actually what pushed me to step up the timetable on the RPS clutch.
OK, back to the RPS. I'm having to go back through the idle settings, as it hunts. The heavier clutch sort of dampens the engine's ability to surge. With so much less MOI, the idle will hunt, go into gradually larger oscillations, and then recover and sit still for a while. So, that will take some sorting out.
You will see a lot of discussions on drivability with lighter clutches and flywheels vs heavier clutches and flywheels over in the M/T section. This is one man's opinion. I have not noticed a degradation in daily driving - other than the afore-mentioned idle surge. It takes a little more gas from a dead stop. Once you are in gear, the lighter assembly performs better - i.e. faster acceleration. Shifting the rest of the way up is no big deal. I honestly don't have to consciously think about how to shift like I used to, if that means anything. Took all of five minutes to get used to the clutch, vs a few days on the old one.
And let me take a moment to say this - the Monster S3 is a solid clutch. What I pulled out after 15,000 miles still has plenty of miles on it. I'm keeping it as an emergency spare. For those of you looking for a clutch that can hold the power and are willing to live with a heavier pedal and some chatter, it's a good option. My wife just didn't like driving it, which was actually what pushed me to step up the timetable on the RPS clutch.
OK, back to the RPS. I'm having to go back through the idle settings, as it hunts. The heavier clutch sort of dampens the engine's ability to surge. With so much less MOI, the idle will hunt, go into gradually larger oscillations, and then recover and sit still for a while. So, that will take some sorting out.
You will see a lot of discussions on drivability with lighter clutches and flywheels vs heavier clutches and flywheels over in the M/T section. This is one man's opinion. I have not noticed a degradation in daily driving - other than the afore-mentioned idle surge. It takes a little more gas from a dead stop. Once you are in gear, the lighter assembly performs better - i.e. faster acceleration. Shifting the rest of the way up is no big deal. I honestly don't have to consciously think about how to shift like I used to, if that means anything. Took all of five minutes to get used to the clutch, vs a few days on the old one.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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From: My own internal universe
Since the question seems to come up all the time - can you install with other brand headers or do you have to use kooks headers? Kooks will want me to say you have to use theirs, but I was able to install it with my Pace Setter 1-7/8" x 3" headers. There is enough flexibility in the kit. I'm sure most kits put the ends within an inch of each other.
It was actually easier to install the Kooks duals than it was the TSP catted Y-pipe I picked up on craigslist, which was probably an older version.
I'm still getting used to the sound. I ran the car for a longer time this morning, and it really does quiet down quite a bit as it warms up, but is still louder than it was on the y-pipe and cat back I had before. When you lay into the throttle, it is the sweetest, richest, meatiest exhaust sound you can imagine, though.
Sounds awesome. That's how I do everything on my cars. About 2' off the ground on 4 6ton Jack stands lol. That's what I hated about my last exhaust, fitment is terrible. Hooker super comp headers, off road y and hooker catback. Leaking everywhere no matter how much I spent on clamps and hitting my crossmember and rattling like crazy. I did buy the kooks TD setup for my mostly strip car but even with the cutouts open on that car with the current exhaust everybody hears the supercharger over the exhaust lol. And I won't have that car back together until spring probably the way it's going now so I won't get to hear it. My street car I want the wife to be able to drive and enjoy too 
. That's why I'll be greatly considering your same clutch as well. She could drive the car with my spec stage 3 clutch 10 years ago but she didn't like it at all. I had a McLeod rev-lok 2 after that which was an iron disc and stock style pressure plate which was a little easier to drive for her. It's been apart for awhile now but the wife said she'd like to see it drive again lol so I've been doing my research.
Congrats on results so far. Sounds like a fun car. Let me know how the wife likes it when she gets in it next
. That's why I'll be greatly considering your same clutch as well. She could drive the car with my spec stage 3 clutch 10 years ago but she didn't like it at all. I had a McLeod rev-lok 2 after that which was an iron disc and stock style pressure plate which was a little easier to drive for her. It's been apart for awhile now but the wife said she'd like to see it drive again lol so I've been doing my research. Congrats on results so far. Sounds like a fun car. Let me know how the wife likes it when she gets in it next
If it's idle hunting play with the RAF (or BAF). That sets the base of airflow at idle. If it's off the STIT and adaptive idle (timing) will be hunting to correct and is why it will eventually settle out. The right RAF gets it close right away.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
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From: My own internal universe
I haven't had any time to tune for the new clutch and exhaust yet, so I know for sure the RAF is off. I get Friday off, and I plan to use that day to work on fine tuning the idle to settle down. I've also noticed it is a lot more sensitive on the TC and TF than it used to be, and the rolling idle adder as well.
I've got the RussK config on my laptop already
To be honest, I think the VE's are going to end up increased as well. It'll be a while before I truly have it ironed out and running smoothly.
I've got the RussK config on my laptop already
To be honest, I think the VE's are going to end up increased as well. It'll be a while before I truly have it ironed out and running smoothly.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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From: My own internal universe
Thanks! Keep in mind, that's a relatively mild cam compared to many on here. 227/236-112+3
now that I know how to shrink the video file size, here is a video of the first start up. The video blk00SS hosted for me is the most recent. The one I'm attaching right here is the first start up on the heads, but still with the old exhaust. I focused more on valvetrain noise in this video, but it gives a baseline for you. Again, the prior post video is more recent
now that I know how to shrink the video file size, here is a video of the first start up. The video blk00SS hosted for me is the most recent. The one I'm attaching right here is the first start up on the heads, but still with the old exhaust. I focused more on valvetrain noise in this video, but it gives a baseline for you. Again, the prior post video is more recent
I wanted kooks duals but decided on Basani tru dual. Its2.5" but still more than enough for stock cubes without needing special suspension. Very sweet sound,loud out side but comfortable in the car.
Went to the dyno yesterday after switching from a 6 spd (452/422 rw) through edelbrock super vic headers and edelbrock cat back with cutout .
Switched to a 200 4r rmvb with 4500 stall non lock up ,kppks 1 7/8 headers and Basani duals ,it put down 425 rwhp. Did not look at tq. I'm confident this exhaust moves as much as the open cut out did. Best sound i ever heard. So I'm sure you gained plenty with 3" kooks.
Now for lite clutch set up. I ran a spec 3+ with an aluminum fly wheel and it surged more at idle as well. But performance wise,it was great both street and track.
On street it did not hit the tires as hard if you learn not to hit the gas until the car starts to nose over then stab the gas. The lite set up revs fast so it would come alive but tires were already hooked.
At the track i pulled 1.59 leaving at 6500. It would slightly bog but recover faster. Most consistent set up i ran on drag radial.
On a full slick a heavy set up should be better but on a drag radial it would break loose to easy and spin or bog to bad . No in between for me.
Very nice combination you have put together.
Disclaimer :typed from mobile phone so forgive mis spelled words.
Went to the dyno yesterday after switching from a 6 spd (452/422 rw) through edelbrock super vic headers and edelbrock cat back with cutout .
Switched to a 200 4r rmvb with 4500 stall non lock up ,kppks 1 7/8 headers and Basani duals ,it put down 425 rwhp. Did not look at tq. I'm confident this exhaust moves as much as the open cut out did. Best sound i ever heard. So I'm sure you gained plenty with 3" kooks.
Now for lite clutch set up. I ran a spec 3+ with an aluminum fly wheel and it surged more at idle as well. But performance wise,it was great both street and track.
On street it did not hit the tires as hard if you learn not to hit the gas until the car starts to nose over then stab the gas. The lite set up revs fast so it would come alive but tires were already hooked.
At the track i pulled 1.59 leaving at 6500. It would slightly bog but recover faster. Most consistent set up i ran on drag radial.
On a full slick a heavy set up should be better but on a drag radial it would break loose to easy and spin or bog to bad . No in between for me.
Very nice combination you have put together.
Disclaimer :typed from mobile phone so forgive mis spelled words.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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From: My own internal universe
For anybody who ends up doing something similar with the kooks and the lighter clutch:
I had to raise idle from 850 to 925 and crack the blade 1/8 turn on the screw to get a steady idle. There wasn't any amount of idle tuning I could do. Base RAF increased by about 0.2 lb/min
VE is up all over the place. Haven't touched timing yet. I can't hear it ping over the pipes. So I want to get air and fuel very confidently before moving on. Coolant running about 10 degrees cooler.
I had to raise idle from 850 to 925 and crack the blade 1/8 turn on the screw to get a steady idle. There wasn't any amount of idle tuning I could do. Base RAF increased by about 0.2 lb/min
VE is up all over the place. Haven't touched timing yet. I can't hear it ping over the pipes. So I want to get air and fuel very confidently before moving on. Coolant running about 10 degrees cooler.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2012
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From: CHristchurch New Zealand
For anybody who ends up doing something similar with the kooks and the lighter clutch:
I had to raise idle from 850 to 925 and crack the blade 1/8 turn on the screw to get a steady idle. There wasn't any amount of idle tuning I could do. Base RAF increased by about 0.2 lb/min
VE is up all over the place. Haven't touched timing yet. I can't hear it ping over the pipes. So I want to get air and fuel very confidently before moving on. Coolant running about 10 degrees cooler.
I had to raise idle from 850 to 925 and crack the blade 1/8 turn on the screw to get a steady idle. There wasn't any amount of idle tuning I could do. Base RAF increased by about 0.2 lb/min
VE is up all over the place. Haven't touched timing yet. I can't hear it ping over the pipes. So I want to get air and fuel very confidently before moving on. Coolant running about 10 degrees cooler.
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Joined: Jul 2014
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From: My own internal universe
Ok, so I have one remaining idle issue and I just don't know where in the tune to look. What happens is it drives great, but every clutch pedal in event, if rpm is less that 1200, it jumps to 1600, drops off, hits about 600, recovers again and settles in. If rpm is greater than 1200, it drops to 600, hunts a few times, and settles in. Once it settles it is very steady.
It does the above behaviors even with adaptive idle disabled or enabled. It is definitely something to do with the clutch pedal in event.
Edit - also does this whether cracker and follower are enabled or disabled.
It does the above behaviors even with adaptive idle disabled or enabled. It is definitely something to do with the clutch pedal in event.
Edit - also does this whether cracker and follower are enabled or disabled.
Last edited by Darth_V8r; Dec 7, 2015 at 08:42 AM.
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From: My own internal universe
Pretty steady at 24-26 degrees when I looked at it in my garage before I left. The line looks like a very fine sawblade. I finally caught it on a log on my way to work this morning, so I'll see if anything jumps out at me. Also, I got some advice from HioSSilver that I'm going to give a try as well - a slight throttle body mod that solved his issue with the car doing exactly the same thing mine is doing.
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From: My own internal universe
So, an update after a bunch of logging under various conditions. The problem appears to be that the engine reacts faster than the IAC. In other words, the throttle response is so crazy fast now with the lighter clutch that by the time the IAC motor makes it's adjustment, the motor has already rev'ed past the point it needs to, so the IAC starts closing and over-compensates, rinse and repeat. The IAC is drifting all over the place, and you can see it chasing its tail on the scanner. It does this even if I disable the spark control and hold spark steady anywhere from 10 to 35 degrees advanced. With any throttle at all, it stops doing it, because I have my tune set to only go into adaptive idle below 1% TPS.
I actually got it to idle and drive steady by setting idle speed really low and then adjusting the idle screw out to 1%. Obviously not the way I want to run, but what it's telling me is that I need to set the idle so that when the car is good and warm, the IAC counts are something stupid like 5-10, so the IAC really only functions as an adder and not a subtractor.
The problem is that I'm already at 0.75V on the TPS. For now, the computer is still letting me reset it, but I'm also still at 30-120 on the IAC. In the end, I may end up needing to drill a hole in the throttle, but I'm hoping to avoid it. However, once I get to that point, my next move will be to start with the stock PID settings and go from there. If that won't work, I'll completely zero the tables and start from nothing.
I hope this all makes sense reading it. It does in my head, anyway...
I actually got it to idle and drive steady by setting idle speed really low and then adjusting the idle screw out to 1%. Obviously not the way I want to run, but what it's telling me is that I need to set the idle so that when the car is good and warm, the IAC counts are something stupid like 5-10, so the IAC really only functions as an adder and not a subtractor.
The problem is that I'm already at 0.75V on the TPS. For now, the computer is still letting me reset it, but I'm also still at 30-120 on the IAC. In the end, I may end up needing to drill a hole in the throttle, but I'm hoping to avoid it. However, once I get to that point, my next move will be to start with the stock PID settings and go from there. If that won't work, I'll completely zero the tables and start from nothing.
I hope this all makes sense reading it. It does in my head, anyway...
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From: My own internal universe
OK, I got most of it resolved. Basically, it was advice JakeFusion has posted numerous times. Between each step, flash the computer with updated settings:
1. Start with a fully warmed up engine. Play with the idle screw until you get a reasonably stable idle. OK if it hunts a bit, but you don't want major surge.
2. Set the spark control in the scanner to get a steady spark. Play with the spark timing until the kpa reading hits a minimum and starts to go back up. Set your high octane, low octane and idle tables in the idle regions from 0-1200 at this timing number. Zero out the overspeed and underspeed spark tables.
3. Play with idle screw until you get a stable RPM, and set that in the RPM target table. I ended up around 1050. Unplug the TPS and IAC, key on for about 20 seconds, key off, plug them in, flash the computer, start the car
4. Log your commanded airflow, and key that into the RAF table.
5. At this point, the car started and held idle without too much trouble. go to the scanner and activate commanded AFR. increase AFR until the RPM drops a bit, and the idle got a bit choppy, and RPM dropped about 100 and held steady.
6. odd series of steps to get the car to idle open loop, and then recalculated VE to get the desired fueling without STFT changing the fueling.
7. The first six steps were necessary to get rid of the stumbling. I needed to get it to stay above a safe minimum to avoid stalling. Throttle follower and throttle cracker air adjust down incrementally until the RPM spike stops happening with clutch in.
In short, I had to completely retune the idle before I could correct the surging
1. Start with a fully warmed up engine. Play with the idle screw until you get a reasonably stable idle. OK if it hunts a bit, but you don't want major surge.
2. Set the spark control in the scanner to get a steady spark. Play with the spark timing until the kpa reading hits a minimum and starts to go back up. Set your high octane, low octane and idle tables in the idle regions from 0-1200 at this timing number. Zero out the overspeed and underspeed spark tables.
3. Play with idle screw until you get a stable RPM, and set that in the RPM target table. I ended up around 1050. Unplug the TPS and IAC, key on for about 20 seconds, key off, plug them in, flash the computer, start the car
4. Log your commanded airflow, and key that into the RAF table.
5. At this point, the car started and held idle without too much trouble. go to the scanner and activate commanded AFR. increase AFR until the RPM drops a bit, and the idle got a bit choppy, and RPM dropped about 100 and held steady.
6. odd series of steps to get the car to idle open loop, and then recalculated VE to get the desired fueling without STFT changing the fueling.
7. The first six steps were necessary to get rid of the stumbling. I needed to get it to stay above a safe minimum to avoid stalling. Throttle follower and throttle cracker air adjust down incrementally until the RPM spike stops happening with clutch in.
In short, I had to completely retune the idle before I could correct the surging