Single beehive 9/18s
Those springs are rated up to 600 lift, on a good day, with perfect installed height, and if installed by monks during a Sunday evening under a full moon.
All aside, I would not chance it
Go to a BTR doubles for some peace of mind.
918s were good springs back when 570s was considered high lift.
All aside, I would not chance it
Go to a BTR doubles for some peace of mind.
918s were good springs back when 570s was considered high lift.
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I'd look into pac 1219's. Still a beehive with more seat pressure and stiffer spring rates. Rated up to .625 lift. Btr duals seem like overkill to me, and every bit of weight you can shave from the valvetrain is valuable.
Just make sure that no matter the spring, you're checking installed height.
Just make sure that no matter the spring, you're checking installed height.
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From: Wilmington, De
I ran the PAC 1218s with the Torquer V2 without issue.
The best thing to do is to test a few of the springs and see how they are holding up. You could always just replace them if they have some miles on them. The XER is an aggressive lobe, so it will wear out valvetrain components much more quickly than some of the other lobe profiles out there.
The best thing to do is to test a few of the springs and see how they are holding up. You could always just replace them if they have some miles on them. The XER is an aggressive lobe, so it will wear out valvetrain components much more quickly than some of the other lobe profiles out there.
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Verdad Gallardo Can you run a beehive sure...but why? It has been proven that they do not really hold any benefit over a quality dual spring. I use to be a advocate for beehive springs until BTR shed some very informing information a while back. Aside from that you do not choose a spring based on lift rating. A BTR dual is far from overkill for a XER lobe...it should be standard. I have seen folks run 1218's with XER lobes and hold up, then I have seen 1218's break after a couple thousand miles with a 228r. Call up TSP and ask them what they suggest.
BTR duals are the go-to spring these days for a lot of setups. I won't argue with the extra insurance of the inner spring if the outer breaks or the general longevity of it..but over-springing a setup will cost power. Maybe only a little but some. What info are you referring to? I don't mean to be argumentative--I like to learn.
Comp has had quality issues over the last several years with some of their springs..I've not heard the same on the PSI beehives.
Comp has had quality issues over the last several years with some of their springs..I've not heard the same on the PSI beehives.
BTR duals are the go-to spring these days for a lot of setups. I won't argue with the extra insurance of the inner spring if the outer breaks or the general longevity of it..but over-springing a setup will cost power. Maybe only a little but some. What info are you referring to? I don't mean to be argumentative--I like to learn.
Comp has had quality issues over the last several years with some of their springs..I've not heard the same on the PSI beehives.
Comp has had quality issues over the last several years with some of their springs..I've not heard the same on the PSI beehives.
Fwiw I was going to opt for a 1511 in place of my PAC 1905's since I am running a milder 53 lobe. I was advised to keep the 1905's since I am running a SLP 1.85 rocker. Even with the higher ratio rocker the lobe intensity at the valve is still a bit milder then a XER and again I was still advised to stick with the duals even though my cam lift is around .588 and the springs are .650 lift.
My current setup pulls to 7k rpm harder then my stock cam/918/1.85 rocker setup pulled to 6k.
Last edited by kinglt-1; Jul 15, 2016 at 11:03 AM.
BTR platinums are far from over springing about any basic heads/cam LS1. Call BTR and ask Brian. Just because the spring says its rated to .650 lift does not mean its over kill for a .580 lift cam. The lobe type and required open and closed seat pressure to keep things in control is how you purchase a spring.
I think it worth noting that TSP literally states that the V2 is beehive or dual friendly and the V4, with a more aggressive lobe design, requires duals. So nothing inherently wrong with running duals with the V2 but if you can get away with a lighter spring with lower pressure, you have more power potential. How much? I don't know. Will that potential be realized? I also don't know. Is it worth giving up the safety of duals? Also up for debate.
I'm personally looking for relatively high RPMs with a stock short block out of this next build and so even spring weight(duals weigh more) has been on my mind.
For reference..open pressure is not that different but seat pressure is very different %-wise:
PSI 1511:
Desc. Beehive
O.D. 1.290"
I.D. Outer .630"
I.D. Middle N/A
I.D. Inner N/A
Seat Pressure 130lbs@1.800 "
Open Pressure 370lbs@1.175 "
Rate Lb./In. 384
Retainer Step .000"
Max Lift .625"
Coil Blind 1.100"
BTR Platinum Dual:
155 lbs @ 1.780"
380 lbs @ 1.180"
400 lbs @ 1.130
coild bind @ 1.070"
Last edited by Mercier; Jul 15, 2016 at 11:15 AM.
Psi 1511 and ti retainers. No use to even look any further.
Only way i would use duals is if it was a solid roller. Even then i have a problem with a spring inside a spring to help control the other spring.
Only way i would use duals is if it was a solid roller. Even then i have a problem with a spring inside a spring to help control the other spring.
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From: Ohio
I always use the PAC 1219s on .590-.610 lift cams. $75 cheaper than the PSI 1511 springs and possibly even more proven. They also have slightly less open pressure. This helps me because I'm cheap and don't ever run anything besides stock pushrods/lifters/rockers/timing chain. More open pressure = higher likelihood of failed components.
Not exactly, that's like buying cylinder heads going by peak flow numbers only. Mass, for example, is a big deal too. A beehive spring setup is about 20g lighter than a dual spring setup, which has a similar effect to running a 20g lighter valve.
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Using Mercier's data from above, i spent a total of 45 seconds throwing this graph together. As you can see, the beehives and the btr duals share almost identical ramp rates, the btr's just start a little stiffer.
For most applications, 130lb installed pressure will be fine. And since the ramps are the same, they should control the valve in a similar manner. If you have very aggressive ramp rates like an xe-r, duals might be very good insurance to cover your *** because they are a tad stiffer, and if you happen to break a spring, you won't drop a valve, but I don't know as though i'd say necessary. Also, if you're not near coil bind, and you need some extra pressure out of a beehive, you can shim them up to get the desired pressure.
Now, lets look at the big picture I think we're talking about here (or at least I am) ...weight. The duals weigh in at 93 grams and the beehives weigh in at 67 grams. That's almost 40% heavier! Considering many people will drop the dough on titanium retainers to save maybe 5 grams, I don't see why they wouldn't run a beehive valvespring. Less weight in the valvetrain means better valve control, less parasitic loss, more true following of the lobe, and less bounce off the valve seat. All of these things directly contribute to more power and more rpm.
Now i'm not trying to say that btr dual springs aren't good. They're an awesome spring. And pretty well priced! But, i just don't think they're needed for many builds. especially since the technology is there for beehives to be able to perform the way they do.
For most applications, 130lb installed pressure will be fine. And since the ramps are the same, they should control the valve in a similar manner. If you have very aggressive ramp rates like an xe-r, duals might be very good insurance to cover your *** because they are a tad stiffer, and if you happen to break a spring, you won't drop a valve, but I don't know as though i'd say necessary. Also, if you're not near coil bind, and you need some extra pressure out of a beehive, you can shim them up to get the desired pressure.
Now, lets look at the big picture I think we're talking about here (or at least I am) ...weight. The duals weigh in at 93 grams and the beehives weigh in at 67 grams. That's almost 40% heavier! Considering many people will drop the dough on titanium retainers to save maybe 5 grams, I don't see why they wouldn't run a beehive valvespring. Less weight in the valvetrain means better valve control, less parasitic loss, more true following of the lobe, and less bounce off the valve seat. All of these things directly contribute to more power and more rpm.
Now i'm not trying to say that btr dual springs aren't good. They're an awesome spring. And pretty well priced! But, i just don't think they're needed for many builds. especially since the technology is there for beehives to be able to perform the way they do.
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Spring weight has pretty much 0 effect on anything. Their mass isn't a 'moving mass' and therefore doesn't weigh down the valvetrain. The only effect on the valvetrain is the pressure pushing back again it, which has nothing to do with their mass. The springs could weigh 800 lbs, as long as their pressure doesn't change, there is no effect on the rest of the valvetrain.
While the seat may not move, the rest of the spring does. That moving mass has momentum and has to in some way be controlled. With the resonance of the spring coming into play, it becomes more evident. The top of the coil is the fastest moving part of any valvetrain. Nothing can move faster than it will allow. And since the top of the spring can actually outrun the retainer sometimes (you can find video where the coil will actually bounce a time or two off the retainer because it's trying to move so fast when bringing the valve back up) it's moving FASTER than anything else.
Lighter springs, and valvetrain as a whole, certainly make a difference.
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Sorry for posting in a row, but I forgot to mention, since a beehive spring gets smaller towards the top, it has less mass at the portion that moves most and moves fastest. While still maintaining spring rates due to the bottom of the coil. This smaller mass up top makes it even better in terms of weight savings, resonance, and control.