Considering a cam
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
Likes: 10
From: Albertville, AL
Considering a cam This will be the end of the road for me. I don't think I will ever do nitrous or FI. However, I'm a bit thirsty for low E/T bragging rights. I bought this 00 SS stock earlier this year. Car has 194K on it but has been well maintained and belonged to older folks its whole life. Stock motor with 3:23 gears. Mods are SSRA, Lid, ported TB, LS6 intake, 1 7/8 LT's, no cats, 2.5" true dual Hooker BH, tune along with a SS3600 stall SFC, LCA w/ relos, panhard bar and TA girdle.
Top priority is E/T gains but car must be very streetable while being easy on my high mileage motor. Car has run 12.0's with 400-600 DA and I'm hoping to get mid 11's with a cam. Is this reasonable?
I figure that my setup is pretty common and that an shelf cam kit will be fine. I plan to do valve springs and PR but would prefer that the cam not lead to having to do a bunch of other things.
Thanks in advance for tolerating another cam thread.
Top priority is E/T gains but car must be very streetable while being easy on my high mileage motor. Car has run 12.0's with 400-600 DA and I'm hoping to get mid 11's with a cam. Is this reasonable?
I figure that my setup is pretty common and that an shelf cam kit will be fine. I plan to do valve springs and PR but would prefer that the cam not lead to having to do a bunch of other things.
Thanks in advance for tolerating another cam thread.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,292
Likes: 436
From: St. Louis
with your current setup even a very mild cam would get you reliably into the elevens. If you don't plan to change anything other than the cam, valve springs, and pushrods It would probably be wise to use a milder lobe to keep your 16 year old lifters happy. I'd look for something on the less aggressive side that I could run with a softer LS6 spring. I'm sure others will disagree but I feel like .550-.570 or so lift is plenty for stock heads.
^^^ I agree. If you look at the flow charts of the stock heads, there is little gained above .500-.550" lift.
That being said, when your total lift is .600+, you do get to and stay in the mid-lift range quicker and longer, respectively. So let's say your heads really start to flow well at .300" lift, even if you gain nothing from .500-.600" lift, you'll likely be .300"+ for more of the event. This is minor on stock heads and I think counter to your goal of ultimate reliability but I wanted to tell you the whole story of why folks run .650" lift on heads that stop gaining flow at .500 or so.
Here is some food for thought from Cam Motion..this would be a fantastic "driver" cam and would easily give you another 50,000+ miles of trouble-free fun with LS6/2/3 valve springs you can get from any vendor or GM performance for about $50-$60.
http://store.cammotion.com/57-ls1-34...-compression-3
This cam and some other could be run with stock valve springs but LS6 springs are very cheap insurance and 200K is pushing it for valve springs already.
They also offer a stage 1 and 2 version also compatible with stock or LS6 valve springs.
Good luck with your ride.
That being said, when your total lift is .600+, you do get to and stay in the mid-lift range quicker and longer, respectively. So let's say your heads really start to flow well at .300" lift, even if you gain nothing from .500-.600" lift, you'll likely be .300"+ for more of the event. This is minor on stock heads and I think counter to your goal of ultimate reliability but I wanted to tell you the whole story of why folks run .650" lift on heads that stop gaining flow at .500 or so.
Here is some food for thought from Cam Motion..this would be a fantastic "driver" cam and would easily give you another 50,000+ miles of trouble-free fun with LS6/2/3 valve springs you can get from any vendor or GM performance for about $50-$60.
http://store.cammotion.com/57-ls1-34...-compression-3
This cam and some other could be run with stock valve springs but LS6 springs are very cheap insurance and 200K is pushing it for valve springs already.
They also offer a stage 1 and 2 version also compatible with stock or LS6 valve springs.
Good luck with your ride.
Sounds like you have an excellent car and have done very well at the strip!
The rockers need to be checked carefully after nearly 200k miles if you do a cam. The trunion upgrade might be worth considering. Likewise with 200k miles the timing chain has stretched. I would replace the timing set if doing a cam to make sure you get the most accurate cam timing events.
At near 200k miles if the car has the original valve springs, they are probably pretty tired and not doing a good job of controlling the valves at high rpm. Even new the factory springs would often show a little valve float in higher rpms. For longevity new springs even with the stock cam might be something to consider.
1.85 roller rockers and freshing up the valve train with new valve springs, locks, retainers might get you into the high 11's without adding much if any stress to the motor.
The rockers need to be checked carefully after nearly 200k miles if you do a cam. The trunion upgrade might be worth considering. Likewise with 200k miles the timing chain has stretched. I would replace the timing set if doing a cam to make sure you get the most accurate cam timing events.
At near 200k miles if the car has the original valve springs, they are probably pretty tired and not doing a good job of controlling the valves at high rpm. Even new the factory springs would often show a little valve float in higher rpms. For longevity new springs even with the stock cam might be something to consider.
1.85 roller rockers and freshing up the valve train with new valve springs, locks, retainers might get you into the high 11's without adding much if any stress to the motor.
I would not do just a cam...with that mileage the lifters and trays need to be replaced along with the oil pump and chain. Tear it down, send the heads to AI for the HC 241 treatment, 224/228 cam, 5315 lifters, LS2 chain, GM performance pump, and you will be much happier in the long run. Yes it will cost more but well worth the extra coin in the end.
I don't disagree with anything above but was answering the OP's "cam-only" question. Trunnions isn't a bad idea and Cloyes C3220(LS2 timing set) can be had at O'Reilley for about $30. Oil pump isn't too spendy either if you go with the typical Melling replacement. Also usually available locally.
I don't know when to say stop so personally I'd pull it for a full build as well...but be down for a lengthy time compared to simple cam swap.
Another thought...if you do pull the heads to replace lifters, you could get yourself a nice used set of 243 heads which are direct built-in for about $350 and then you have another 30+HP in the heads alone. This will never beat fully ported heads though.
I don't know when to say stop so personally I'd pull it for a full build as well...but be down for a lengthy time compared to simple cam swap.
Another thought...if you do pull the heads to replace lifters, you could get yourself a nice used set of 243 heads which are direct built-in for about $350 and then you have another 30+HP in the heads alone. This will never beat fully ported heads though.
True...I guess where I was getting at is, if the heads gotta come off to replace lifters then I personally would not bolt them back on stock. 243's would be a cheaper solution as well for a nice little bump in power. 
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I agree above, need lifters for sure, I wouldn't mess with ls7's like king said. get the morels. ls6 ported oil pump, new timing set. Get some stock 243's just to help out, they will a lot. Then get your cam and 3.73 gears. Be pricey but all those things are apart, might as well replace them now while its torn down.
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I'd do a BTR Stage 3, move to 3.73s, and get AI ported 241 heads, new timing chain, oil pump, trunions, and lifters/pushrods. See breakdown below (using BTR's site):
$389 BTR Stage 1 Cam 223/230 .610"/.573" 115+2 (would drive like stock and pick up 40rwhp)
$299 BTR Platinum Springs (needed for the cam)
$94 BTR Hardened Pushrods (ditto)
$1195 AI Ported Heads w/HCR Option (11:1 without losing PtV clearance - another 35-40rwhp)
$119 Melling M295 oil pump
$150 C5R Chain
$429 Johnson 2110 Drop In Lifters + new Trays $26
$159 Straub Trunion Kit
$250 or so for gaskets (MLS head gaskets, front cover, new crank bolt, new head bolts)
Then I'd recommend moving to a 3.73 just to make the 3600 and cam work even better:
$300 3.73s + Install kit (+$250 for R&R typically)
Bottom 11s with those things.
$389 BTR Stage 1 Cam 223/230 .610"/.573" 115+2 (would drive like stock and pick up 40rwhp)
$299 BTR Platinum Springs (needed for the cam)
$94 BTR Hardened Pushrods (ditto)
$1195 AI Ported Heads w/HCR Option (11:1 without losing PtV clearance - another 35-40rwhp)
$119 Melling M295 oil pump
$150 C5R Chain
$429 Johnson 2110 Drop In Lifters + new Trays $26
$159 Straub Trunion Kit
$250 or so for gaskets (MLS head gaskets, front cover, new crank bolt, new head bolts)
Then I'd recommend moving to a 3.73 just to make the 3600 and cam work even better:
$300 3.73s + Install kit (+$250 for R&R typically)
Bottom 11s with those things.
Last edited by JakeFusion; Nov 20, 2016 at 11:11 PM.
^^^ I agree. If you look at the flow charts of the stock heads, there is little gained above .500-.550" lift.
That being said, when your total lift is .600+, you do get to and stay in the mid-lift range quicker and longer, respectively. So let's say your heads really start to flow well at .300" lift, even if you gain nothing from .500-.600" lift, you'll likely be .300"+ for more of the event. This is minor on stock heads and I think counter to your goal of ultimate reliability but I wanted to tell you the whole story of why folks run .650" lift on heads that stop gaining flow at .500 or so.
Here is some food for thought from Cam Motion..this would be a fantastic "driver" cam and would easily give you another 50,000+ miles of trouble-free fun with LS6/2/3 valve springs you can get from any vendor or GM performance for about $50-$60.
http://store.cammotion.com/57-ls1-34...-compression-3
This cam and some other could be run with stock valve springs but LS6 springs are very cheap insurance and 200K is pushing it for valve springs already.
They also offer a stage 1 and 2 version also compatible with stock or LS6 valve springs.
Good luck with your ride.
That being said, when your total lift is .600+, you do get to and stay in the mid-lift range quicker and longer, respectively. So let's say your heads really start to flow well at .300" lift, even if you gain nothing from .500-.600" lift, you'll likely be .300"+ for more of the event. This is minor on stock heads and I think counter to your goal of ultimate reliability but I wanted to tell you the whole story of why folks run .650" lift on heads that stop gaining flow at .500 or so.
Here is some food for thought from Cam Motion..this would be a fantastic "driver" cam and would easily give you another 50,000+ miles of trouble-free fun with LS6/2/3 valve springs you can get from any vendor or GM performance for about $50-$60.
http://store.cammotion.com/57-ls1-34...-compression-3
This cam and some other could be run with stock valve springs but LS6 springs are very cheap insurance and 200K is pushing it for valve springs already.
They also offer a stage 1 and 2 version also compatible with stock or LS6 valve springs.
Good luck with your ride.
What mph gains and do you have a video of how it sounds?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
Likes: 10
From: Albertville, AL
Folks have warned me that this is a slippery slope, LOL. I really appreciate the suggestions though. I also appreciate you guys listing the specific items that are involved when considering replacing a cam on these cars.
Looks like oil pump, chain, mild cam kit plus install would be ~$1000 and get me mid to high 11's. I suspect that this might leave me feeling like I wish I had gone further while I had it torn down.
BTR suggested part including cam, AI heads, oil pump and all new top end components will be around $3100 but should get me low 11's, right?
I've had other folks tell me on here that since I have 3:23 gears and I'm an auto that going to 3:73 gears won't gain me much. But maybe that was before I ever considered a cam.
Looks like oil pump, chain, mild cam kit plus install would be ~$1000 and get me mid to high 11's. I suspect that this might leave me feeling like I wish I had gone further while I had it torn down.
BTR suggested part including cam, AI heads, oil pump and all new top end components will be around $3100 but should get me low 11's, right?
I've had other folks tell me on here that since I have 3:23 gears and I'm an auto that going to 3:73 gears won't gain me much. But maybe that was before I ever considered a cam.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
Likes: 10
From: Albertville, AL
Another piece of the puzzle is that I currently don't have a great place to do the work on this car. I have done all of the mods myself including headers and exhaust in my drive way. I do have a 1 car garage, but its not enough room to have the car in and work on it. I'd like to do the work myself because I am a DIY'er. But I don't like the idea of having the car torn apart in the driveway for fear of foreign objects making there way into the motor while its apart, paranoid or OCD... maybe so.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,292
Likes: 436
From: St. Louis
Just do the bare minimum. small cam like the camotion, grind or something similar and LS6 springs. You can even reuse the stock pushrods if they aren't bent. I've always just rolled them on a mirror to check. Could easily be done over a weekend. remember that short block has 200k on it and there's always the possibility you could spin a bearing or worse revving the **** out of it with some donkey dick. later down the road when you are ready for a rebuild you can decide if you want to spend big bucks on upgrade heads, better reciprocating components, ect... a smaller cam will get you what you want right now.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
Likes: 10
From: Albertville, AL
Those are certainly good numbers, but the peak HP is at 6500 which concerns me a bit. I supposed I could keep my shift points which are around 6100 I think.
That makes sense. The more money it ends up looking like I'll have to spend, the less likely I will actually do it. I'm guilty of being a true tightwad.
Just do the bare minimum. small cam like the camotion, grind or something similar and LS6 springs. You can even reuse the stock pushrods if they aren't bent. I've always just rolled them on a mirror to check. Could easily be done over a weekend. remember that short block has 200k on it and there's always the possibility you could spin a bearing or worse revving the **** out of it with some donkey dick. later down the road when you are ready for a rebuild you can decide if you want to spend big bucks on upgrade heads, better reciprocating components, ect... a smaller cam will get you what you want right now.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
Likes: 10
From: Albertville, AL
Would the 243 heads allow me to safely go with a larger cam, even though my long block has a bunch of miles? If I spin a rod bearing, is there a danger of breaking my new top end components?
See my above post. The HCR 241s don't lose any PtV and can be had at 59cc... or whatever you want. And they are ported. Would blow out the 243s...
I also edited my cam suggestion to mate up better with the 3600. I still recommend the 3.73s though.
I also edited my cam suggestion to mate up better with the 3600. I still recommend the 3.73s though.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,292
Likes: 436
From: St. Louis
I just don't see the point in spending all that $$$ on a good for now running 200k engine if he just needs a little more power To get the ET that he wants. any older shelf grind would work fine for what the op wants out his already great running setup. A cheap little low lift 224 or so duration cam with softer ramps that work with cheap oem spings wouldn't be any harder on the worn but still working valvetrain and bottom end than the cam that's already in there and would easily give enough mid-range grunt and added HP for what he wants out of his setup. hell the 200k worth of soot on top of the pistons and the worn timing chain are prolly the reason his car traps so high as it is!
even if he replaced the entire toppend, valvetrain and oil pump ect, those main bearings and piston rings will still have 200k on them and will eventually need to be serviced.
I'd have the crank turned and new bearings and rings installed before I'd dump $3000+ into a head and cam package just to put it on top of a 200k short block and watch it blow up. it just doesn't make any sense to me.
I guess if I had dumped a bunch of money into my car without really weighing what I stand to get out of it ET wise I'd want everyone else to do the same. then again I have 3.73's and I wish I had my 3.23's back so what do I know?
even if he replaced the entire toppend, valvetrain and oil pump ect, those main bearings and piston rings will still have 200k on them and will eventually need to be serviced.
I'd have the crank turned and new bearings and rings installed before I'd dump $3000+ into a head and cam package just to put it on top of a 200k short block and watch it blow up. it just doesn't make any sense to me.
I guess if I had dumped a bunch of money into my car without really weighing what I stand to get out of it ET wise I'd want everyone else to do the same. then again I have 3.73's and I wish I had my 3.23's back so what do I know?
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This will be the end of the road for me. I don't think I will ever do nitrous or FI. However, I'm a bit thirsty for low E/T bragging rights. I bought this 00 SS stock earlier this year. Car has 194K on it but has been well maintained and belonged to older folks its whole life. Stock motor with 3:23 gears. Mods are SSRA, Lid, ported TB, LS6 intake, 1 7/8 LT's, no cats, 2.5" true dual Hooker BH, tune along with a SS3600 stall SFC, LCA w/ relos, panhard bar and TA girdle.
Top priority is E/T gains but car must be very streetable while being easy on my high mileage motor. Car has run 12.0's with 400-600 DA and I'm hoping to get mid 11's with a cam. Is this reasonable?
I figure that my setup is pretty common and that an shelf cam kit will be fine. I plan to do valve springs and PR but would prefer that the cam not lead to having to do a bunch of other things.
Thanks in advance for tolerating another cam thread.
Top priority is E/T gains but car must be very streetable while being easy on my high mileage motor. Car has run 12.0's with 400-600 DA and I'm hoping to get mid 11's with a cam. Is this reasonable?
I figure that my setup is pretty common and that an shelf cam kit will be fine. I plan to do valve springs and PR but would prefer that the cam not lead to having to do a bunch of other things.
Thanks in advance for tolerating another cam thread.
Folks have warned me that this is a slippery slope, LOL. I really appreciate the suggestions though. I also appreciate you guys listing the specific items that are involved when considering replacing a cam on these cars.
Looks like oil pump, chain, mild cam kit plus install would be ~$1000 and get me mid to high 11's. I suspect that this might leave me feeling like I wish I had gone further while I had it torn down.
BTR suggested part including cam, AI heads, oil pump and all new top end components will be around $3100 but should get me low 11's, right?
I've had other folks tell me on here that since I have 3:23 gears and I'm an auto that going to 3:73 gears won't gain me much. But maybe that was before I ever considered a cam.
Looks like oil pump, chain, mild cam kit plus install would be ~$1000 and get me mid to high 11's. I suspect that this might leave me feeling like I wish I had gone further while I had it torn down.
BTR suggested part including cam, AI heads, oil pump and all new top end components will be around $3100 but should get me low 11's, right?
I've had other folks tell me on here that since I have 3:23 gears and I'm an auto that going to 3:73 gears won't gain me much. But maybe that was before I ever considered a cam.
Another piece of the puzzle is that I currently don't have a great place to do the work on this car. I have done all of the mods myself including headers and exhaust in my drive way. I do have a 1 car garage, but its not enough room to have the car in and work on it. I'd like to do the work myself because I am a DIY'er. But I don't like the idea of having the car torn apart in the driveway for fear of foreign objects making there way into the motor while its apart, paranoid or OCD... maybe so.
After thinking about it and reading what the "trays" are, I'm kind of liking the idea of 243 heads, cam, lifters(and trays), oil pump and chain. This will certainly be a good bit more work, but it would be a completely renewed top end.
Would the 243 heads allow me to safely go with a larger cam, even though my long block has a bunch of miles? If I spin a rod bearing, is there a danger of breaking my new top end components?
Would the 243 heads allow me to safely go with a larger cam, even though my long block has a bunch of miles? If I spin a rod bearing, is there a danger of breaking my new top end components?
Those are certainly good numbers, but the peak HP is at 6500 which concerns me a bit. I supposed I could keep my shift points which are around 6100 I think.
That makes sense. The more money it ends up looking like I'll have to spend, the less likely I will actually do it. I'm guilty of being a true tightwad.
That makes sense. The more money it ends up looking like I'll have to spend, the less likely I will actually do it. I'm guilty of being a true tightwad.
So, I would recommend:
The Cam Motion Titan IV camshaft
New Lifters
New Lifter Trays
Our .650" or .660" valve springs kit
Our hardened chrome-moly .080" wall pushrods in 7.400"
A new timing chain set
New Melling 10295 Oil pump:
New Harmonic Damper Bolt
The easiest way to create a camshaft installation kit and see the cost total in real-time is to use our Camshaft Installation Kit Creator:
http://store.cammotion.com/customize...roller-cam-kit
This one page has every option you might need to install your camshaft. Simply choose each item you are considering and add to the shopping cart. You can even refine your choices once it is in the shopping cart and see your kit total price change in real time. So much easier than hunting down all the parts on different pages. Try it out.