Planning heads and cam
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Joined: Mar 2012
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From: South Florida
Great information!
After learning these things I noticed on my cam card, Comp. cam, that the advertised duration @.050" was different than the valve events listed. Only one degree intake/exhaust but still a difference.
After learning these things I noticed on my cam card, Comp. cam, that the advertised duration @.050" was different than the valve events listed. Only one degree intake/exhaust but still a difference.
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This is pretty common. The reason for 1 degree difference is that many modern cam lobes are non-symmetrical. The valve opening ramp side of the lobe is typically faster than the valve closing side of the lobe. This presents itself on the valve events because the cam grinder often measures the lobe center base on a measurement that might be .050" from peak lift on the nose of the camshaft whereas the valve events @.050" that are referenced are most often measured .050" off of the base circle.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
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From: Albertville, AL
Thank you Cam Motion guru for that incredible explanation. I'm amazed at how all these things work together. I'm still not grasping everything 100% when it comes to cams, but I'm understanding enough to know a little bit more about what's going on.
11 Second Club
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: South Florida
This is pretty common. The reason for 1 degree difference is that many modern cam lobes are non-symmetrical. The valve opening ramp side of the lobe is typically faster than the valve closing side of the lobe. This presents itself on the valve events because the cam grinder often measures the lobe center base on a measurement that might be .050" from peak lift on the nose of the camshaft whereas the valve events @.050" that are referenced are most often measured .050" off of the base circle.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
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From: Albertville, AL
For your specific application questions, yes the Titan IV will be great for you. The 3600 stall converter will assure that the Titan IV is always in its powerband. The valve timing of the Titan IV will also give you the needed torque to power your 3.23 gears. Of course, your car will accelerate quicker from a stop with a 3.73 or 4.10 gear, but the Titan IV we be great in your current combo and appreciate future modifications like a higher numerical rear gear change if you do that later.
I wonder if mine having those humps will help with that?
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Verdad Gallardo The Titan 4 was the basis of my previous hydraulic cam. I had basically averaged out the valve events of a few good midrange cams like the Titan 4 and the tick SNS. I can tell you based on that cam, which I ran on stock gears in a manual transmission, that it's a good performer.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
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From: Albertville, AL
The Titan 4 was the basis of my previous hydraulic cam. I had basically averaged out the valve events of a few good midrange cams like the Titan 4 and the tick SNS. I can tell you based on that cam, which I ran on stock gears in a manual transmission, that it's a good performer.
A used set of 799's that have been CNC ported by Ricky Childers of Toney AL is now a possibility for me. A friend purchased them from a friend of his that is upgrading to AFR's. They were pulled from a running Camaro. Price is too cheap to pass up. I plan to look them over real good of course. One ZO6 valve spring is broken but the valve didn't drop(broke when removed). I hope to look at them tonight.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
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From: Albertville, AL
They are the ls6 heads with the lightweight valves. They were ported by a shop in childersburg, but they haven't been milled. Not sure when I'm going to upgrade but I will probably get some tfs220's of prc227's
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
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From: Albertville, AL
If I end up going with different vendors with heads and cam doesn't it make sense to choose my cam first and then have my heads worked?
I haven't heard back from Phil in 8 days. My last Email to him was Dec 21st. Might need to confirm that he got my last Email. Holidays are involved too.
I called TSP yesterday and Avery suggested a V4 cam and stage 2.5 heads for my setup, but this was before he asked about my gearing(3:23). With TSP, I may opt for the stage 1 heads for a 5hp reduction from the 2.5's. I also wonder if the V4 is a little more than what I want and that the 228r, 228/232 or V2 would better suite my needs.
I'm still very much considering the Cam Motion Titan 4 with TSP stage 1 heads or AI 226's.
I've warmed up to the idea of reving past 6200. Blackstone is sending me a oil sample kit to test my motor oil. But my high mileage lower end still is a bit of concern. Thoughts?
I haven't heard back from Phil in 8 days. My last Email to him was Dec 21st. Might need to confirm that he got my last Email. Holidays are involved too.
I called TSP yesterday and Avery suggested a V4 cam and stage 2.5 heads for my setup, but this was before he asked about my gearing(3:23). With TSP, I may opt for the stage 1 heads for a 5hp reduction from the 2.5's. I also wonder if the V4 is a little more than what I want and that the 228r, 228/232 or V2 would better suite my needs.
I'm still very much considering the Cam Motion Titan 4 with TSP stage 1 heads or AI 226's.
I've warmed up to the idea of reving past 6200. Blackstone is sending me a oil sample kit to test my motor oil. But my high mileage lower end still is a bit of concern. Thoughts?
In general I think it's better to pick heads first and then get a cam that matches the heads. Say you end up with a mismatch and they're fighting each other... are you gonna ditch the heads or swap the cam? You'll swap the cam. Better to get it done in one fell swoop.
Now, the Titan4 is a good all around cam that will run well on a broad array of combinations. Most of the midrange cams in the 227-230 range are. However if you do aftermarket castings you may end up wanting a later IVC and more overlap or less split. Things like that.
If you're going to do a midrange cam, don't expect great results with a large runner head, because the goals are different. Torque is flow velocity and high end power is total flow. By the same token, a smallish runner with a spin monster cam will be poorly matched.
So I guess if you're dead set on the titan4 or the 228r or the street sweeper HT or the SNS2, stick with heads that have runner volumes 225 or lower. If you're gonna start looking at 23x sized cams, a larger runner head makes sense, but then gear your rear and set the motor up for 7k +revving.
Hope that helps. It's always tricky with this stuff. But I hope that explains why it makes sense to be patient and get your heads firmly decided before you select your cam.
Now, the Titan4 is a good all around cam that will run well on a broad array of combinations. Most of the midrange cams in the 227-230 range are. However if you do aftermarket castings you may end up wanting a later IVC and more overlap or less split. Things like that.
If you're going to do a midrange cam, don't expect great results with a large runner head, because the goals are different. Torque is flow velocity and high end power is total flow. By the same token, a smallish runner with a spin monster cam will be poorly matched.
So I guess if you're dead set on the titan4 or the 228r or the street sweeper HT or the SNS2, stick with heads that have runner volumes 225 or lower. If you're gonna start looking at 23x sized cams, a larger runner head makes sense, but then gear your rear and set the motor up for 7k +revving.
Hope that helps. It's always tricky with this stuff. But I hope that explains why it makes sense to be patient and get your heads firmly decided before you select your cam.
How many miles on the motor? Have you done a compression test? I did the same thing at 130k.. oil sample came back perfect.. compression test came back good enough. i had 2 cylinders about 10-12 psi lower if i remember. Thats all you can really do unless you pull your motor to get it refreshed which may run 12-1500 depending on labor rates around your area..
Unfortunately i am in the process of getting my motor pulled because i dinged my cam bearing during removal.. doesn't take much so be careful! What got me was my trans cooler is mounted in front of my condensor, thought it would clear but ran into it at the last inch.. caught the edge of the bearing with a lobe while moving it back in.. didn't even notice i did it honestly.. but the bright side is atleast this way i'll trust my shortblock in the end, hate to do it all over again so soon.. I'm glad it happened in a way, other than the 1200-1500 extra its costing me and setting me back a couple months.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
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From: Albertville, AL
DarthV8r, that makes perfect sense. I've certainly came across info that references what you're stated too. I guess my logic was a bit backwards because I was thinking about having the heads milled to get the desired CC.
RollingSS, I haven't thought about doing a compression test, but I have the gauge to do it and it would be a bit of piece of mind if things checked out pretty good. I do realize that a low compression may be due to a valve. I saw your thread about your cam install. I'm curious to read about your progress.
I'm kind of back to thinking about the 228 range cam again after reading about high mileage motors biting the dust after heads/cam. I'm thinking I'll play it safe and keep the R's down.
RollingSS, I haven't thought about doing a compression test, but I have the gauge to do it and it would be a bit of piece of mind if things checked out pretty good. I do realize that a low compression may be due to a valve. I saw your thread about your cam install. I'm curious to read about your progress.
I'm kind of back to thinking about the 228 range cam again after reading about high mileage motors biting the dust after heads/cam. I'm thinking I'll play it safe and keep the R's down.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 484
Likes: 10
From: Albertville, AL
I still haven't been able to do a compression test yet.
Heads:
Looks like AI went up to $1195 on their 226 package. I had about decided to spend the extra $250 on AI over TSP because of the great reputation they have. But now the difference between AI 226 mill work and TSP Stage 1 is a $445 difference. Not sure I can justify the difference anymore. I do realize I may be leaving a few ponies on the table with the TSP stage 1 vs AI 226's, but I haven't seen any undeniable evidence.
Cam considerations: Wanting to keep a good bit of mid range torque but still have nice increase in the 1/4. Also wanting to keep my rev's low to take care of my high mileage lower. All these cams have similar lift. What CC should I get the heads milled for?
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 1
223/227 | .610"/.590" | LSA111+2 | 35-45rwhp | 1600-6200
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 2
227/235 | .618"/.605" | LSA110+3 | 40-50rwhp | 1800-6400
Tick Performance Street Heat Stage 1 V2
225/228 | .615”/.595” | LSA112+3 |30-45rwhp | 1800-6400
Tick Performance Street Heat Stage 2 V2
231/235 | .625”/.605” | LSA113+3 | 40-50rwhp | 2000-6600
Cam Motion Titan 4
227/232 | .612”/.595” | LSA 113+4 | 2500-6400
Cam Motion Titan 3
224/228 | .603”/.595” | LSA 113+4 | 2200-6200
Heads:
Looks like AI went up to $1195 on their 226 package. I had about decided to spend the extra $250 on AI over TSP because of the great reputation they have. But now the difference between AI 226 mill work and TSP Stage 1 is a $445 difference. Not sure I can justify the difference anymore. I do realize I may be leaving a few ponies on the table with the TSP stage 1 vs AI 226's, but I haven't seen any undeniable evidence.
Cam considerations: Wanting to keep a good bit of mid range torque but still have nice increase in the 1/4. Also wanting to keep my rev's low to take care of my high mileage lower. All these cams have similar lift. What CC should I get the heads milled for?
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 1
223/227 | .610"/.590" | LSA111+2 | 35-45rwhp | 1600-6200
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 2
227/235 | .618"/.605" | LSA110+3 | 40-50rwhp | 1800-6400
Tick Performance Street Heat Stage 1 V2
225/228 | .615”/.595” | LSA112+3 |30-45rwhp | 1800-6400
Tick Performance Street Heat Stage 2 V2
231/235 | .625”/.605” | LSA113+3 | 40-50rwhp | 2000-6600
Cam Motion Titan 4
227/232 | .612”/.595” | LSA 113+4 | 2500-6400
Cam Motion Titan 3
224/228 | .603”/.595” | LSA 113+4 | 2200-6200
Based on overlap and what you are looking to achieve.. I'm not a pro at this and going only by what everyone has taught me here.. My vote is for the cam motion Titan 4.. 3.5 degrees overlap so it will drive extremely well and is good to 6400, which is not over revving your stock motor.
If you are willing to sacrifice a touch more driveability but potentially make a few extra RWHP, my 2nd vote would be the street heat stage 2.
As mentioned i'm not a pro, but from what i have learned. Increased overlap can net more power but you sacrifice driveability.I ended up with a 9 degree overlap because i wanted a happy medium while trying to achieve 450 rwhp.
Regardless, i'd make sure to stick with a cam motion core! Being they check their cams for accuracy and other cores have been found off by quite a few degress. They have excellent customer service too! Not trying to take away from other vendors, just personal opinion and preference.
I added overlap to the specs for you.
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 1
223/227 | .610"/.590" | LSA111+2 | 35-45rwhp | 1600-6200
Overlap: 3
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 2
227/235 | .618"/.605" | LSA110+3 | 40-50rwhp | 1800-6400
Overlap: 11
Tick Performance Street Heat Stage 1 V2
225/228 | .615”/.595” | LSA112+3 |30-45rwhp | 1800-6400
Overlap: 2.5
Tick Performance Street Heat Stage 2 V2
231/235 | .625”/.605” | LSA113+3 | 40-50rwhp | 2000-6600
Overlap: 7
Cam Motion Titan 4
227/232 | .612”/.595” | LSA 113+4 | 2500-6400
Overlap: 3.5
Cam Motion Titan 3
224/228 | .603”/.595” | LSA 113+4 | 2200-6200
Overlap: 0
If you are willing to sacrifice a touch more driveability but potentially make a few extra RWHP, my 2nd vote would be the street heat stage 2.
As mentioned i'm not a pro, but from what i have learned. Increased overlap can net more power but you sacrifice driveability.I ended up with a 9 degree overlap because i wanted a happy medium while trying to achieve 450 rwhp.
Regardless, i'd make sure to stick with a cam motion core! Being they check their cams for accuracy and other cores have been found off by quite a few degress. They have excellent customer service too! Not trying to take away from other vendors, just personal opinion and preference.
I added overlap to the specs for you.
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 1
223/227 | .610"/.590" | LSA111+2 | 35-45rwhp | 1600-6200
Overlap: 3
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 2
227/235 | .618"/.605" | LSA110+3 | 40-50rwhp | 1800-6400
Overlap: 11
Tick Performance Street Heat Stage 1 V2
225/228 | .615”/.595” | LSA112+3 |30-45rwhp | 1800-6400
Overlap: 2.5
Tick Performance Street Heat Stage 2 V2
231/235 | .625”/.605” | LSA113+3 | 40-50rwhp | 2000-6600
Overlap: 7
Cam Motion Titan 4
227/232 | .612”/.595” | LSA 113+4 | 2500-6400
Overlap: 3.5
Cam Motion Titan 3
224/228 | .603”/.595” | LSA 113+4 | 2200-6200
Overlap: 0
Last edited by RollinSScamaro; Jan 6, 2017 at 12:16 PM.
Of those choices, I think the Titan 4 would be your best bet. I had the Torquemax Stage 2 in my car, and it flat out did not work with the heads I have. I changed over to a custom Cam Motion cam, and now make 447 rwhp with a stock LS6 intake and TB. As Darth eluded to earlier, the heads make a big difference in which cam is going to be appropriate for the combination. That's why it's important to have the heads picked out first and have the cam spec'd around the heads and their flow characteristics.