H/C/I Build: MMS 223 Heads by MamoMotorsports(dyno ##)
05-22-2017, 02:49 PM
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H/C/I Build: MMS 223 Heads by MamoMotorsports(dyno ##) I am running MMS 223 heads and custom cam spec by Tony Mamo,stock short block, on 2000 FRC corvette, M6 with full exhaust, no cats.
Here is the specs:
MMS 223 Heads milled to 60cc, hand finished by MamoMotorsports
Custom cam 227/232 on 113 with .613/.610 lift
stock Rockers with Trunion kit upgrade
Ls7 Lifters
Melling high pressure oil pump
Ls2 water pump (did not have to grind on TB or water pump with this setup)
Fast 102 Intake
NW 102 TB
Ls2 fuel rails
52lbs injectors
255 fuel pump
Lg SuperPro 1 7/8 Long tube headers, X pipe no cats, Borla Stinger Catback
Speed Density Tune (no MAF) to avoid restriction on the CAI
Monster stage 3 clutch with steel flywheel
My goal is to get as close to 500rwhp as possible...
I should be getting to the Dyno sometime this week if possible, and have some results....
I want to give thanks to my good friend
@Regorih383 from C.O.P Tuning Solutions for Tuning the car..
Here is the specs:
MMS 223 Heads milled to 60cc, hand finished by MamoMotorsports
Custom cam 227/232 on 113 with .613/.610 lift
stock Rockers with Trunion kit upgrade
Ls7 Lifters
Melling high pressure oil pump
Ls2 water pump (did not have to grind on TB or water pump with this setup)
Fast 102 Intake
NW 102 TB
Ls2 fuel rails
52lbs injectors
255 fuel pump
Lg SuperPro 1 7/8 Long tube headers, X pipe no cats, Borla Stinger Catback
Speed Density Tune (no MAF) to avoid restriction on the CAI
Monster stage 3 clutch with steel flywheel
My goal is to get as close to 500rwhp as possible...
I should be getting to the Dyno sometime this week if possible, and have some results....
I want to give thanks to my good friend
@Regorih383 from C.O.P Tuning Solutions for Tuning the car..
Last edited by jerry306; 05-26-2017 at 10:49 PM.
05-22-2017, 03:14 PM
#3
Finally got around to tune the C5 with a speed density tune and do street tuning on the car.
For those wondering why we decided to go with the speed density tune it was to eliminate any restriction in the intake path. By removing the mass air we are removing a big restriction on the intake path and given this combo best opportunity to make power and get as close to or over 500rwhp from this LS1.
Enjoy the vid from last night.
For the High Definition vid go to my Facebook page to view it.
Facebooks page name is C.O.P Tuning Solutions
For those wondering why we decided to go with the speed density tune it was to eliminate any restriction in the intake path. By removing the mass air we are removing a big restriction on the intake path and given this combo best opportunity to make power and get as close to or over 500rwhp from this LS1.
Enjoy the vid from last night.
Facebook Post
For the High Definition vid go to my Facebook page to view it.
Facebooks page name is C.O.P Tuning Solutions
05-22-2017, 08:05 PM
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I'm interested as well. My understanding is the intakes on both heads will flow virtually identical butbthe exhaust on the 220 is better
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05-23-2017, 11:49 AM
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That's s good question. I don't know, but definitely the better downstream exhaust has to help the flow atvthe port. Enough to offset it, possibly overtake it? Interesting...
05-23-2017, 05:31 PM
#10
Not to rain on the OP's parade (a parade I'm walking and attending myself!), on paper this is not a recipe for a 500 WHP build and expecting close to that on an honest dyno is really asking for too much (and unnecessarily setting yourself up for disappointment which is why I take the time to post).
Anyone truly looking for 500 RWHP has to know up front that you cant leave a stone un-turned in your quest to get there (with a stock 346), especially one with a mild cam profile....its extremely difficult and everything needs to be optimized and even then your likely to fall short. That's the reality of the situation....there is a reason less than 1% of the folks that post on this board have achieved that number
Couple of "stones" you didnt turn over listed below....this is why I say on paper this isn't a 500 RWHP build....its more of a 465 ish RWHP build (IMO) quickly glancing over things but that's not a number to be ashamed off by any means. Cracking 450 with a small cammed build that's alot more explosive and fun to drive is still very impressive....the more time you have spent here on Tech the more you know that to be true.
The choice of heads....while I feel my MMS 223 is an excellent head (really excellent factoring in the cost), my MMS 220 is a better choice if your shooting for the elusive (and very exclusive) 500 club.
LS7 lifters....The OEM lifters give up lift and duration compared to a much better Johnson with the short travel feature. That costs you power and are slightly noisier not to mention
Stock rockers....not as optimal as roller rockers....less net effective lift
FAST 102....Needs to be ported (not sure if it is....worth mentioning in the event it isn't).
Clutch....often overlooked and the source of many folks not being as close to 500 as they could have been. You NEED a lightweight unit which can be worth 12-14 RWHP over a unit that weighs 50+ lbs.....something in the low/mid 30's is ideal for making power and providing enough inertia for good drivability. The Mamofied RPS unit I offer is the perfect clutch for this particular task
These are some of the things that quickly jumped at me looking down the build list and worth mentioning.
On paper this build is closer to 450 RWHP than it is 500 but landing anywhere in between those two numbers would be a job well accomplished and a very enjoyable car to drive....it will be fast with no sacrifice in the day to day enjoyment of the car which can get old quick with big cams that only target the peak number of the power curve
Hope some of you find this post enlightening and give you some things to think about!
Regards,
Tony
Anyone truly looking for 500 RWHP has to know up front that you cant leave a stone un-turned in your quest to get there (with a stock 346), especially one with a mild cam profile....its extremely difficult and everything needs to be optimized and even then your likely to fall short. That's the reality of the situation....there is a reason less than 1% of the folks that post on this board have achieved that number
Couple of "stones" you didnt turn over listed below....this is why I say on paper this isn't a 500 RWHP build....its more of a 465 ish RWHP build (IMO) quickly glancing over things but that's not a number to be ashamed off by any means. Cracking 450 with a small cammed build that's alot more explosive and fun to drive is still very impressive....the more time you have spent here on Tech the more you know that to be true.
The choice of heads....while I feel my MMS 223 is an excellent head (really excellent factoring in the cost), my MMS 220 is a better choice if your shooting for the elusive (and very exclusive) 500 club.
LS7 lifters....The OEM lifters give up lift and duration compared to a much better Johnson with the short travel feature. That costs you power and are slightly noisier not to mention
Stock rockers....not as optimal as roller rockers....less net effective lift
FAST 102....Needs to be ported (not sure if it is....worth mentioning in the event it isn't).
Clutch....often overlooked and the source of many folks not being as close to 500 as they could have been. You NEED a lightweight unit which can be worth 12-14 RWHP over a unit that weighs 50+ lbs.....something in the low/mid 30's is ideal for making power and providing enough inertia for good drivability. The Mamofied RPS unit I offer is the perfect clutch for this particular task
These are some of the things that quickly jumped at me looking down the build list and worth mentioning.
On paper this build is closer to 450 RWHP than it is 500 but landing anywhere in between those two numbers would be a job well accomplished and a very enjoyable car to drive....it will be fast with no sacrifice in the day to day enjoyment of the car which can get old quick with big cams that only target the peak number of the power curve
Hope some of you find this post enlightening and give you some things to think about!
Regards,
Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 05-23-2017 at 09:40 PM.
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madmike9396 (03-27-2021)
05-23-2017, 05:49 PM
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Should def be a strong runner. In 4 graph. Kind of thought same thing the other night when I saw the thread. "Don't think 500rwhp but probably over 450". Nice build.
05-24-2017, 06:24 PM
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@regorih383 - lol at sig quote. i used to say camshafts were like breast implants because you always wish you had gone bigger after theyre installed.
@OP - I really hesitated, because I don't like to curb enthusiasm, but Tony is right about several points. I do think 450-470 is quite realistic, but 500 hp on a 346 takes everything you've got. my first shot at it was a pretty similar build to your, except for the lifters, since I used johnson short travels. Anyway, with that build I hit 470. Now, the cam you have compared to mine is probably better, because your IVC is later and your EVO is earlier compared to my first cam, so it will likely rev better. And you'll have less overlap, so itll be easier to tune for sure.
My second shot at it after doing pretty much everything on Tony's list below, I still came up short at 496, and that was still on that 227/235 cam.
I finally punched through on my third attempt, but it was on a much larger cam and jumping to solid roller lifters that really pushed it over the top.
Now, I only say all that above to say this - i think your build could break the 500 mark with those heads as the foundation, but it'll take more than what you've got in your current list. At the same time, I sort of hope you DO hit it, because I like seeing these builds do really well.
But let's say you don't and you get 450-470. Yours is probably going to be more fun to drive vs mine. Youll have better torque off idle and in cruising ranges. And that kind of power on a 227/232 cam is freaking awesome. Guys on ported factory heads are using alot more cam than that to get similar power. but above that 450-470 mark, you really start to make compromises to gain HP, so if the number matters that much to you, be aware of what you can potentially do to the car.
And remember there is a reason you see guys "DE-mod" from time to time - you can go too far and turn the car into a POS if you're not careful. And everyone's tolerance for it is different. Mine is quite high. Others aren't. Most of that is in going too large with the cam. But then some of us like the larger cams. I've had people tell me they were more impressed with the car when it "only"made 470, because it was so much more comfortable.
Anyway, I'm very excited to see how this build turns out. Anything north of 450-hp is really very good IMO
@OP - I really hesitated, because I don't like to curb enthusiasm, but Tony is right about several points. I do think 450-470 is quite realistic, but 500 hp on a 346 takes everything you've got. my first shot at it was a pretty similar build to your, except for the lifters, since I used johnson short travels. Anyway, with that build I hit 470. Now, the cam you have compared to mine is probably better, because your IVC is later and your EVO is earlier compared to my first cam, so it will likely rev better. And you'll have less overlap, so itll be easier to tune for sure.
My second shot at it after doing pretty much everything on Tony's list below, I still came up short at 496, and that was still on that 227/235 cam.
I finally punched through on my third attempt, but it was on a much larger cam and jumping to solid roller lifters that really pushed it over the top.
Now, I only say all that above to say this - i think your build could break the 500 mark with those heads as the foundation, but it'll take more than what you've got in your current list. At the same time, I sort of hope you DO hit it, because I like seeing these builds do really well.
But let's say you don't and you get 450-470. Yours is probably going to be more fun to drive vs mine. Youll have better torque off idle and in cruising ranges. And that kind of power on a 227/232 cam is freaking awesome. Guys on ported factory heads are using alot more cam than that to get similar power. but above that 450-470 mark, you really start to make compromises to gain HP, so if the number matters that much to you, be aware of what you can potentially do to the car.
And remember there is a reason you see guys "DE-mod" from time to time - you can go too far and turn the car into a POS if you're not careful. And everyone's tolerance for it is different. Mine is quite high. Others aren't. Most of that is in going too large with the cam. But then some of us like the larger cams. I've had people tell me they were more impressed with the car when it "only"made 470, because it was so much more comfortable.
Anyway, I'm very excited to see how this build turns out. Anything north of 450-hp is really very good IMO
05-26-2017, 10:47 PM
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OK guys finally made it to the Dyno today guys , the weather was not all that great, 85 degrees and 80% humidity. Still went ahead and made some 3 pulls... best was 466/421, not all that impressed but i can live with it, the car drives great and feels awesome...thanks to Velocity Motorsports for letting me use their Dyno, and to @regorih383 for all the help....
05-27-2017, 07:24 AM
#15
OK guys finally made it to the Dyno today guys , the weather was not all that great, 85 degrees and 80% humidity. Still went ahead and made some 3 pulls... best was 466/421, not all that impressed but i can live with it, the car drives great and feels awesome...thanks to Velocity Motorsports for letting me use their Dyno, and to @regorih383 for all the help....
https://youtu.be/2QfUIle2NHY
https://youtu.be/2QfUIle2NHY
05-27-2017, 09:12 AM
#18
It blows my mind how few people understand what a no compromises all out max effort SBE LS1 entails (generalizing a bit here); well the one compromise is an engine that ends up being essentially race-only (again a bit of a generalization).
05-27-2017, 10:15 AM
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IM not disappointed guys, im just not that impressed with the #'s and i would of thought they would been a little higher, but by no means do i think this setup is't great. Very fun to drive and cruise around town, getting anything over 450rwhp out of these Ls small blocks is awesome specially with such a moderate cam...
