Stuck lifter #7 exh.
Stuck lifter #7 exh. To make a long story short. Last summer I install a Howards 226 232, 578 587, 115 cam and their drop in lifters (Morels). The car ran fine last year and I put about 3000 miles on the set up. The car is a 2004 GTO LS1. This year after a smooth start up, I started hearing a loud tappet after about 500 miles. The last time I drove it, about 2 weeks ago, it got so loud that I called Howards and started to take down the motor so they could look at the parts.
All the intake ports were clean except number 7, which was oily. All piston crowns and combustion chambers were burning clean except 7. All lifters came out by hand except 7 EXH. It is stuck in, and the cam lobe is scored. I used a vise grip on the lifter flats and pulled and wiggled it for 1/2 an hour, but could only get it about an inch out. I need some help and a sense of direction. I do not known if it is out far enough to remove the cam. Suggestions please!
All the intake ports were clean except number 7, which was oily. All piston crowns and combustion chambers were burning clean except 7. All lifters came out by hand except 7 EXH. It is stuck in, and the cam lobe is scored. I used a vise grip on the lifter flats and pulled and wiggled it for 1/2 an hour, but could only get it about an inch out. I need some help and a sense of direction. I do not known if it is out far enough to remove the cam. Suggestions please!
Last edited by rednari2; Jun 1, 2018 at 06:48 PM.
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#7 cylinder I'm not a pro but wanted to relay my experience with Cyl #7, my understanding is there's something in the design of the LS engines/intake/whatever that gets highest amount of air to #7, which always makes it run leaner and things break there most often. Whatever the short term cure for this valve, bench flow your injectors and always put the fattest one on Cyl #7 in the future.
But just at face value with my limited experience I'd guess you had #7 running lean as I described and maybe a ringland broke there and caused valve interference and broke stuff? double check the piston. Never heard of just detonation doing damage along valvetrain like that but maybe a pro will jump in and throw an opinion.
But just at face value with my limited experience I'd guess you had #7 running lean as I described and maybe a ringland broke there and caused valve interference and broke stuff? double check the piston. Never heard of just detonation doing damage along valvetrain like that but maybe a pro will jump in and throw an opinion.
Last edited by TAfan100; Jun 1, 2018 at 03:06 PM.
I had something similar happen. It won't come out the top. You'll have to pull the cam and hammer it in try to catch it before it drops into the pan. I'd pull the motor as there's a good chance the bottom of the lifter exploded and you've got metal bits through the motor.
[QUOTE=ddnspider;19906847]I had something similar happen. It won't come out the top. You'll have to pull the cam and hammer it in try to catch it before it drops into the pan. I'd pull the motor as there's a good chance the bottom of the lifter exploded and you've got metal bits through the motor.[/QUOT
Exactly what I thought. Pull the cam, if I can, and push the lifter through. I can only raise the lifter about an inch. I hope that is enough to remove the cam. I'll see tomorrow. The cam is scored, so I think the lifter turned. Its funny because the motor ran so well. The springs are good. No roll over at higher rpms.
As to the possible bits, we'll how good the PF46 filter is.
Exactly what I thought. Pull the cam, if I can, and push the lifter through. I can only raise the lifter about an inch. I hope that is enough to remove the cam. I'll see tomorrow. The cam is scored, so I think the lifter turned. Its funny because the motor ran so well. The springs are good. No roll over at higher rpms.
As to the possible bits, we'll how good the PF46 filter is.
Also, they make a bearing puller that will grip the inside lip of the lifter and pull it out the top. It comes as part of a slide hammer kit. They call it a blind bearing puller. Like this;
There are cheap ones available at Harbor Freight. I had an old 5.3 that ALL of the lifters were stuck in the block from never having had an oil change and sludge building up on the body of the lifter and not allowing them to come out the top easily. With the slide hammer, and the collar that locks onto the lifter, you can literally just ratchet it right out the top.
There are cheap ones available at Harbor Freight. I had an old 5.3 that ALL of the lifters were stuck in the block from never having had an oil change and sludge building up on the body of the lifter and not allowing them to come out the top easily. With the slide hammer, and the collar that locks onto the lifter, you can literally just ratchet it right out the top.
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Good point DDN! Had not thought of that. The weight on the slide is probably too small to pull a mushroomed lifter through. I would assume it would just keep popping the collet off the lifter if it was really bad at the bottom of the lifter. But, caution is always easier than buying a new block! Good call!
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All of the above are good points. Thanks for the suggestions. The cam is scored so it must come out anyway. I am going to tie the lifter with piano wire through the plunger hold down clip. That will keep it from falling into the block. Let you know how it goes tomorrow.
Ok. I got the lifter out, but could not tie it with piano wire. The gap between the plunger keeper and plunger is too tight. I used a magnet and fished it out. I found it wedged between the crank and the block. The 04 GTO uses the second style LS1 motor. Therefore, it uses an LS6 block, 4th gen rods and two size head bolts. The vents in front and back let you get to the lifter are on numbers 7,8 and 1 and 2. If one of the middle lifters failed, it would be almost impossible to get to with a magnet.
The lifter was flat in one spot and the cam is shot. I will post pics later. I checked all the cam galleries for shavings, by eyesight and magnet and found none, a good thing. I drained the oil and found no metal speckles. I opened the filter and found no metal build up on the pleats or in the can. The lifter wear, must be diffused and suspended in the oil. Most filters filter to 25 microns, while anything smaller is considered harmless and will pass through the motor until the next oil change. The cam journals are clean and so are the bearings, at least the three I can see. All the lobes show scuffing, with 7 EXH. being scored badly. All cylinders burned cleanly and show clean exhaust ports and headers, except no. 7.
The cam and lifters are being returned to Howards for analysis tonight. Meanwhile, I will remove the pan and check the oil galleries for debris and open the pump to check for debris and build up. Otherwise the motor is spotless. Something to be expected after filling the car with Delo 400 (15-40 diesel oil) since the factory fill was changed in 04. The motor ran great until this. I kept the 6700 rev limiter. Weird. Suggestions please!
The lifter was flat in one spot and the cam is shot. I will post pics later. I checked all the cam galleries for shavings, by eyesight and magnet and found none, a good thing. I drained the oil and found no metal speckles. I opened the filter and found no metal build up on the pleats or in the can. The lifter wear, must be diffused and suspended in the oil. Most filters filter to 25 microns, while anything smaller is considered harmless and will pass through the motor until the next oil change. The cam journals are clean and so are the bearings, at least the three I can see. All the lobes show scuffing, with 7 EXH. being scored badly. All cylinders burned cleanly and show clean exhaust ports and headers, except no. 7.
The cam and lifters are being returned to Howards for analysis tonight. Meanwhile, I will remove the pan and check the oil galleries for debris and open the pump to check for debris and build up. Otherwise the motor is spotless. Something to be expected after filling the car with Delo 400 (15-40 diesel oil) since the factory fill was changed in 04. The motor ran great until this. I kept the 6700 rev limiter. Weird. Suggestions please!
Update. I took the cam to my machine shop (Windy City Engineering) before returning it to Howards. He believes the cam is at fault, because the journals are not scored, and all of the lobes are. He told to bring in the heads so he could check the springs. Since he did the port work 3000 miles ago he does not believe the springs are at fault. Nor does he believe it was caused by the lifters. If it were one or two lobes, that would lead him to believe it maybe something other than the cam. But with all lobes worn, he believes the cam is the culprit.
The reason there are no shavings as yet found in the oil or filter, is because the cam worn down slowly over 3000 miles or so. During that time the motor received three oil changes: the first after 300 miles, the second after 3000, and the third when I it started this season. This change currently has about 500 miles or so on it. The motor ran good until two weeks ago.
The reason there are no shavings as yet found in the oil or filter, is because the cam worn down slowly over 3000 miles or so. During that time the motor received three oil changes: the first after 300 miles, the second after 3000, and the third when I it started this season. This change currently has about 500 miles or so on it. The motor ran good until two weeks ago.
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Good point. If it were due to dirt or shavings etc., the journals would show scoring. The machinist believes the cam was not hardened correctly or that step in the process was missed. People make mistakes.
Good point. If it were due to dirt or shavings etc., the journals would show scoring. The machinist believes the cam was not hardened correctly or that step in the process was missed. People make mistakes.
I agree with that. Neither I or the machinist have another explanation. It could be something else, but right now it looks like incorrect hardening. He also said that over the years he has seen several OE cams flatten, but thought most of the aftermarket cams held up well to higher spring rates and lift.
Last edited by rednari2; Jun 6, 2018 at 08:40 AM.
Howards replaced the cam and lifters. I got them on Friday. They had the old cam for about ten days for inspection and then sent the new set. Without talking to the actual inspector, it was related to me by the service department that it was believed to be a Rockwell hardness issue.
Anyway we are good. Its nice to have a company that stands by their products. At first I thought that Howards may not warranty the product. It could make the argument that the parts were a year old since the cam install occurred last year. But, they were reasonable. When they saw that every cam lope was affected, they felt Rockwell harness was the issue.
I known you would like to see the pics. But, I lost them when I tried to down load them. I have lots of problems with my phone whenever I try to download. I can text the pics, but not download. But, every cam lope was scored, and 7 Exh lifter was flat and the lope heavily scored.
Its alot of work of course pulling the cam. These motors are more difficult to work on when compared to a Gen I. But, Howards stood by their product. I would have gotten angry if I had to tear down the motor and pay for new parts. I would buy their parts again.
Anyway we are good. Its nice to have a company that stands by their products. At first I thought that Howards may not warranty the product. It could make the argument that the parts were a year old since the cam install occurred last year. But, they were reasonable. When they saw that every cam lope was affected, they felt Rockwell harness was the issue.
I known you would like to see the pics. But, I lost them when I tried to down load them. I have lots of problems with my phone whenever I try to download. I can text the pics, but not download. But, every cam lope was scored, and 7 Exh lifter was flat and the lope heavily scored.
Its alot of work of course pulling the cam. These motors are more difficult to work on when compared to a Gen I. But, Howards stood by their product. I would have gotten angry if I had to tear down the motor and pay for new parts. I would buy their parts again.