Tooley TFS 220's vs 235's on 408 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

Notices
Generation III Internal Engine 1997-2006 LS1 | LS6
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Tooley TFS 220's vs 235's on 408

 
Old 01-09-2019, 09:08 AM
  #1  
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (77)
 
98RedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,672
Default Tooley TFS 220's vs 235's on 408

Quick background. Ordered BTR4 cam, TFS220's and FAST 102 from Tooley a few months back to go on a stock cubed LS.

Change of plan recently and I purchased a 408 from TMS.

I am switching the cam over to Tooley's 239/254 .624"/.595" 114+3 cam.

I had BTR do some work on the TFS 220's originally when I bought them. Also had them port match to the intake.

Now they'll be opening up the chambers for the 4.0" bores.

It is my understanding that the TFS 220's can be opened up to match the 235's?

Additionally, by leaving them as they are right now, as TFS 220's touched by Tooley, how much would I be leaving on the table as compared to the TFS 235's? What is the cost generally for someone to do the port work necessary to bring them up to 235's?

Lastly, the new pistons will be flat tops with -2cc reliefs. I asked BTR about milling the heads to up the comp ratio on this motor and they advised against it on 92/93 octane fuel. I guess I didn't realize that the compression ratio would be that high?
98RedBird is offline  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:29 AM
  #2  
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
Jtm2085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,076
Default

I'll be following this. I have TEA tfs220's on my ls6 now. I have been exploring the options on having them opened up as I am building a 6.0 based 370. TEA told me that they can not run their 235 program through my heads. Frankenstein will run their 237 program through them, but for $1500
Jtm2085 is offline  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:47 AM
  #3  
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (77)
 
98RedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,672
Default

So I guess I'm confused on this topic.

Why can't they open them up to 235? Was I wrong in my understanding that the 220's can be opened up to 235's?

For $1,500, I would hope the gains are more than modest.
98RedBird is offline  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:03 PM
  #4  
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
Jtm2085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,076
Default

I was under the same impression, and had heard it on here many times. That was a big factor in picking the tfs220s for me. But Gregg at TEA told me that they can't run the 235 program through these heads. I dont know why. Maybe Brian Tooley or some one else will chime in..
Jtm2085 is offline  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:57 PM
  #5  
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (77)
 
98RedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,672
Default

Well that would suck. That's one of the reasons I went with them.
98RedBird is offline  
Old 01-09-2019, 04:39 PM
  #6  
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (40)
 
00pooterSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas
Posts: 3,330
Default

**** I'm interested to see how the 220's would do on the 408

May not be ideal for upper end RPM but everywhere else would be snappy as ****.
00pooterSS is offline  
Old 01-09-2019, 05:15 PM
  #7  
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
Jtm2085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,076
Default

A buddy of mine has the 215's that are for the 4.0 bore on his 408 and it made a hair over 500whp through a t56. No track times
Jtm2085 is offline  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:14 PM
  #8  
TECH Addict
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,117
Default

On a 408, I'd think the larger port volume of the 235 would make more top end power while the 220's would have better midrange torque.
wannafbody is offline  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:06 AM
  #9  
10 Second Club
iTrader: (4)
 
Darth_V8r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 6,685
Default

Build what you have and get the car running. Likely make something a bit unusual like 500/500. The 235 May net you another 20 or so HP mainly from rpm. Past peak is where the 235 will shine.

If you are planning to rev you will need the bigger ports. If not, save your money and get your car running
Darth_V8r is offline  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:40 AM
  #10  
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (26)
 
kinglt-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ft. Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,556
Default

I would say 235's. 408 should have plenty of mid-range from the stroke.
kinglt-1 is offline  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:32 PM
  #11  
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (77)
 
98RedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,672
Default

Called and spoke with TEA this afternoon. Was told they don't do anything with the TFS as cast. Just not worth developing a port is what they said.

They said that Frankenstein and AI both may do it.

Still wish someone had some empirical data on the difference between tooley worked 220's and the 235's. Are we talking 40 hp? 10? If it's significant then yeah, I suppose I'm interesting in looking down that path, if not, if it's 10-20 hp, then no, probably not.
98RedBird is offline  
Old 01-10-2019, 03:44 PM
  #12  
Staging Lane
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 60
Default

Cant give exact # increases between those heads, but on my similar setup it was recommended by almost every single person to get the bigger heads.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...k-500rwhp.html
bthomas is offline  
Old 01-10-2019, 04:22 PM
  #13  
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
 
JakeFusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pace, FL
Posts: 10,770
Default

I don't think it'll be as much of a gain as you hope. Certainly not worth the extra cash.

That cam is not great. And your supporting mods don't look like you'd get a lot out of a 245 head (and it needs to be the 245 port program and 2.10" valve). Getting over 550 out of a 408 is tough (and really the only reason to try to do something bigger than the 220s). And that's only going to happen with a much larger cam, a lot of compression, MSD/FAST 102, very free flowing exhaust, and all the little tricks to nickel and dime 5HP here or there.

I think you'll be in the 500/500 range... but that cam is designed more for holding power past peak or an LS3 head (or even like an F1R on a 408). It does lose some midrange. But that's probably okay... the 408 makes up for it.
JakeFusion is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:15 PM
  #14  
10 Second Club
iTrader: (4)
 
Darth_V8r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 6,685
Default

Originally Posted by bthomas
Cant give exact # increases between those heads, but on my similar setup it was recommended by almost every single person to get the bigger heads.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...k-500rwhp.html
Yup. Difference is he has his in hand already. If he did not and was asking what to order, 235 all day long.
Darth_V8r is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:20 PM
  #15  
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (77)
 
98RedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,672
Default

Originally Posted by JakeFusion View Post
I don't think it'll be as much of a gain as you hope. Certainly not worth the extra cash.

That cam is not great. And your supporting mods don't look like you'd get a lot out of a 245 head (and it needs to be the 245 port program and 2.10" valve). Getting over 550 out of a 408 is tough (and really the only reason to try to do something bigger than the 220s). And that's only going to happen with a much larger cam, a lot of compression, MSD/FAST 102, very free flowing exhaust, and all the little tricks to nickel and dime 5HP here or there.

I think you'll be in the 500/500 range... but that cam is designed more for holding power past peak or an LS3 head (or even like an F1R on a 408). It does lose some midrange. But that's probably okay... the 408 makes up for it.
Curious why you say the cam isn't great? Admittedly, I'm no cam expert, but it seems that Brian Tooley is fairly well respected around here, he's the one that spec'd that cam out, so I would assume that it'd be a good choice for what I'm trying to do.

My goals are to get into the 10's and trap mid 120's N/A. I'll be spraying, but wanting to get into those numbers without that.

What other supporting mods would I do? Genuinely asking here. I feel like I'm doing quite a bit.

Thanks man.
98RedBird is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:53 PM
  #16  
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
Jtm2085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,076
Default

RedBird, I think our heads will show the biggest limitation when spraying. It may be down 20hp on motor, but I'm afraid of losing out on alot power while using heavy amounts of nitrous
Jtm2085 is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:03 PM
  #17  
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (40)
 
00pooterSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas
Posts: 3,330
Default

You didn't say what car you're putting this in. I assume an F body. An F body with a 408, those 220 heads and just about any cam will have no problem trapping 120's and hitting upper 10's. Seen that done with less in an F body.
00pooterSS is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:12 PM
  #18  
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
 
JakeFusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pace, FL
Posts: 10,770
Default

That cam might be suited for a big shot of nitrous. How much are you spraying? If you're trying to spray 300, that cam would be good. But the exhaust port will need some work.

As far as the cam, it's designed for an LS3 head. And it's sort of a lot overlap for such an early IVC. Cathedral heads need overlap... but also need later intake closing points as they don't flow like an LS3 head. LS3 heads make power and are sensitive to overlap, so you usually undersize the intake duration and add exhaust duration to help them (generally speaking - exhaust flow sucks in comparison to cathedral with that big intake taking up so much space). But Blah blah. Cathedral heads make power with toasters for cams, so it'll work. I would have probably tried a 247/255 114+4 or so. But it's all in the ballpark. As I said, more exhaust duration carries the power higher and past peak. But it does flatten out the midrange gains. Tooley also sells an EPS 244/256 114 Cam... it makes big power too. And the valve events are closer to what I would want to see.

Other mods? ATI Balancer, EWP, 3" True Duals, 2" Headers, .036" quench, 12:1 CR (on 93... 12.5:1+ on E60/E85), short travel lifters, 3/8" pushrods etc. etc.

What I hate about NA Power is the cost to add 20HP. If you're trying to spray a lot, who even cares about NA power. Optimize it for the spray. You'll be running a tune with limited timing and cold plugs. It won't make huge power NA. But, if you don't plan to run it at the track and spray all the time, maybe don't worry about the spray as much.

What you'll find is that trying to get a lot of power out of an NA setup is frustrating. A 5.3L JY motor with a PT7675 would walk it for much much less money. And it would drive like stock. But there's other issues with turbo setups on these cars. Namely heat management. And retaining A/C and things like that.
JakeFusion is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:35 PM
  #19  
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (40)
 
00pooterSS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas
Posts: 3,330
Default

Originally Posted by JakeFusion View Post
That cam might be suited for a big shot of nitrous. How much are you spraying? If you're trying to spray 300, that cam would be good. But the exhaust port will need some work.

As far as the cam, it's designed for an LS3 head. And it's sort of a lot overlap for such an early IVC. Cathedral heads need overlap... but also need later intake closing points as they don't flow like an LS3 head. LS3 heads make power and are sensitive to overlap, so you usually undersize the intake duration and add exhaust duration to help them (generally speaking - exhaust flow sucks in comparison to cathedral with that big intake taking up so much space). But Blah blah. Cathedral heads make power with toasters for cams, so it'll work. I would have probably tried a 247/255 114+4 or so. But it's all in the ballpark. As I said, more exhaust duration carries the power higher and past peak. But it does flatten out the midrange gains. Tooley also sells an EPS 244/256 114 Cam... it makes big power too. And the valve events are closer to what I would want to see.

Other mods? ATI Balancer, EWP, 3" True Duals, 2" Headers, .036" quench, 12:1 CR (on 93... 12.5:1+ on E60/E85), short travel lifters, 3/8" pushrods etc. etc.

What I hate about NA Power is the cost to add 20HP. If you're trying to spray a lot, who even cares about NA power. Optimize it for the spray. You'll be running a tune with limited timing and cold plugs. It won't make huge power NA. But, if you don't plan to run it at the track and spray all the time, maybe don't worry about the spray as much.

What you'll find is that trying to get a lot of power out of an NA setup is frustrating. A 5.3L JY motor with a PT7675 would walk it for much much less money. And it would drive like stock. But there's other issues with turbo setups on these cars. Namely heat management. And retaining A/C and things like that.

Agreed. The 2k or so spent to open up those heads/get out of them and go larger heads to get 20 or so past peak only, maybe up to 30 ish up at the very top.. is insane. You could do a crank scraper and a electric water pump for half that cost and get that power, and have it everywhere. Delete power steering or do a low drag PS pump too and you're making more power for less money and making it over a broader range without sacrifice to low end. And the 220 heads will still make numbers as is.
00pooterSS is offline  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:27 PM
  #20  
TECH Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (77)
 
98RedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,672
Default

Originally Posted by Jtm2085 View Post
RedBird, I think our heads will show the biggest limitation when spraying. It may be down 20hp on motor, but I'm afraid of losing out on alot power while using heavy amounts of nitrous
Define heavy amounts of nitrous. I'm going to be in the 250 range.
98RedBird is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

About Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: