Pulse Red

Hi all.

Some may recall that a little while ago I put up a thread that resulted in my move from a Cam Motion 218/226 .595/.587 116+4 (shown below in Red) to a TSP 216/220 .600/.600 112+2 (shown in Green) in my Heads and Cam 5.7 LS1 6 speed manual Holden Monaro (Pontiac GTO equivalent):




Note: This is in Australia so in KW and rated lower than US dyno.


I actually only installed the 218/226 cam because a lifter failure took out my original 214/217 .600/.587 112+4 custom cam (which I was very happy with the performance but not the noise but is unavailable now anyway). Now it looks like despite only recently fitting these new LS7 lifters and the new TSP cam, I've had another lifter failure. Very unlucky. I'm booked in to have it pulled apart shortly to see if the cam is damaged. I was really happy with the TSP cam also.

The issue I have is that if the cam needs to be replaced, I wont be able to get another TSP 216/220 cam in enough time. It took a while for this to arrive in Australia last time through the supplier as its not something that is kept on shelves here. I wouldn't have enough time to order in something like a Cam Motion custom cam either. I cant leave the car in pieces at the shop and its not feasible for me to move it to and from the shop between work. So, I will need to choose a new baby cam that is stocked locally.

I love the TSP lobes, very smooth and quiet and this cam makes good low down power and yet revs out to 7000 rpm. I'm not a fan of lope and thump, I like smooth cams and the TSP is pretty good in this area but more noticeable than my other cams. I want to stay with .600+ lift and as high -overlap as I can as well as keeping the intake duration low. The wider the RPM range the better, starting at 1200/1300 but running out to around 7000 rpm (so peak around 6500 is ideal. So, all things that my current combo does (helped by my heavily ported 241 heads/ free flowing intake and exhaust).

With this in mind, the following are available to me locally off the shelf:

Comp LSR 265Lr HR12 (54-455-11)

215/223 .604/.610 112

RPM Range: 1300 - 6500

Overlap: -5.00


Howard’s Cams (190255-13)

218/218 .604/.604 113

RPM Range: 1500 - 6500

Overlap: -8.00


Lunati Voodoo high lift (20540716LK)

219/223 .625/.625 112

RPM Range: 1800 - 6400

Overlap: -3.00


I think the Voodoo looks good for power but I don't think I will be happy with it based on my requirements, so I think its between the first 2 cams. Anyone on here used these cams? Ive heard both can have noisy and aggressive lobes. Also, any power or performance figures? Is there an issue with the Howards cam being a single pattern cam? Don't see that very often.

Any general thoughts? Good or Bad

Thanks

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

I would suggest looking at Cam Motion as well. Their Titan series is excellent. Really good street manners and no issues pulling to 7k. Something like the stage 2 would be great. I wouldn't go with the Howards based on the overlap. The Lunati and the Comp are rather close to each other so it would really be about the lobes.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Man, sorry to hear you've got another lifter failure. I think this could indicate you're getting lifters that are "made to LS7 specifications" but not true LS7 GM lifters. I would highly recommend stepping up to a set of johnson 2110. In this case, you might find the expensive lifters are cheaper than the cheap lifters. price might be higher, but damaged camshafts avoided...

As to cam selection, I think you're at a crossroads. If the 216/220-112+2 is more lope than you like, anything you do to reduce lope is also going to reduce the RPM band up top. The ability to rev is directly linked to overlap. More overlap means more RPM potential, but also more lope. making the cam smoother at this point is going to hurt your top end. if the cam was a larger cam, like a 230/238-112, 'd say you could tolerate reducing duration and overlap and still rev, but have a smoother engine. At 216/220, you're pretty close to where you're going to trade off significant top end.

I think the above is the reason the TSP cam did better than the cam motion cam. More overlap helps it fill the cylinder better at higher RPM, keeping it pulling stronger up top. To get much smoother, we'd need to increase LSA and decrease duration. What this will do is cost you some low end and midrange and then also run out of steam earlier.

An alternative approach to get the RPM band up would be to go to a shorter runner intake. This would move your peak RPM up some by airflow dynamics even with less cam. But you'll lose the low end and midrange to keep the top end.

So, from where I'm sitting, decide if you want to keep the RPM or if you want to reduce the lope. Right now, I'd argue your TSP cam is a good blend already and you might do best to just get the same cam. I don't think any of the cams you listed in first post are going to make you any happier. You could just call cam motion and request that 214/217 cam that you liked before and have them grind it for you. They can do anything over there.

Pulse Red

Hi, thanks for the response. Alas, Cam Motion has the same issue as TSP, not sold in my country so won't arrive in time. Having imported both, they take a long time to arrive here.

The 218/226 Cam Motion I replaced with the TSP 216/220 cam (Cam Motion is shown in red on the dyno sheet, TSP is green) was the titan series, I won't be getting a cam like that again, not a good thing. I would have looked at a custom though but that's no chance in this time frame.

Cheers

Pulse Red

Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed response. For the lifters, my first set that failed were LS1 lifters. These ones are LS7. The shop that fitted them assured me they were genuine (LS7 is all they fit apparently). I will say that I'm considering something else. Not concerned if they cost more. I'll look into the availability of the Johnson 2110, thanks for the tip.

I would certainly buy this same TSP cam again if it were an option. It's very good with decent low end and really solid mid range while still reving hard to 7k. It's basically around the limit for me regarding overlap, though. I would like a little less thump but it's a fair trade off. The Voodoo cam will push it I think but I wouldn't want positive overlap, I know from experience. Based on the manufactures listing, the Comp revs a little harder than the Voodoo anyway.

The Comp seems to have a really broad range, it seems the cam that would deliver the closest to my 216/220 with a tiny bit more lope. No real trade off, may even have a smidge more down low? I've seen guys down here make very solid power with these but I doubt it would be as smooth/quiet as the 216/220. I'm thinking it has quite harsh lobes. Hopefully someone on here may have used one to comment.

Although, I was very curious about the 218/218 Howard's cam too. It's so different to anything else I've looked at over the last few years.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

If you dont like the existing TSP cam, you wont like any of the 3 cams you suggested. Do you have other off the shelf cam options from a vendor? It sounds like you want a cam with around 0 overlap.

Pulse Red

Sorry for any confusion, I haven't said I don't like the TSP, I love it (it was the Cam Motion I hated) but I can't get the TSP in time. I can only get the 3 options I listed in time for the car to be repaired by the shop. I was just saying I don't want something with more lump than the TSP if I can avoid it.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

oh that's a different story. Id go lunatic, comp, Howard's in that order for you.

MuhThugga

I would pick Lunati over the other grinds. Aside from having good results with their grinds before, that cam has more lift than your other options. With the .625" lift, you could run the PAC 1219, PSI 1511ML, or the Lunati 73925K3 dual spring kit that comes with tool steel retainers or 73925K1 with chromoly steel retainers.

G Atsma

Read the above. The Lunati cam goes against most of what he says above.
- Does NOT like lope or thump. Smooth gets it.
- Likes .600+ lift. This is the ONLY feature the Lunati passes on comparatively with the most lift.
- As high a NEGATIVE overlap as he can with low intake duration. Lunati has MOST overlap and highest intake duration
- The wider RPM range the better. Lunati has the narrowest of the 3.
Some of you are NOT paying attention, just focusing on lift and none of the other facets he mentioned.
He actually needs the Howards cam, with Comp 2nd.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

A cam with -3 overlap will drive like stock and be a baby with good tuning. it won't lope either. It will also extend his rpm range. If you read his reply to me he said he LIKED the old TSP cam that was -6*. I'm about the king of undersizing a cam and still suggest the Lunati.

Pulse Red

Thanks for the replies guys.

I really like the ability to rev out a cam but most important is low down performance. The car is heavy and I live in a very built up city. I would use 0-3500 rpm 90% of the time (6 speed manual remember). It's why I liked the 214/217 cam so much, it hauled in the rpm where I used the car most. The TSP doesn't quite have as much down low but it's close and revs harder. Anywhere around the performance of both these cams will keep me happy.

The Voodoo cam lists an rpm range of 1800 to 6400 vs the Comp with 1300 to 6500. The Comp seemed the better bet. My experience has shown the lower intake duration helps deliver better response and low down. It and the extra thump were why I was marking the Voodoo down. I couldn't see what it offered over the Comp except that I have nicely ported CNC heads that could use the extra lift but I don't know how much that would be worth at my level.

I do already have a new dual spring kit that went in with the TSP cam, I wasn't looking to change it. I would need to confirm that it is rated for .625 but I would be surprised if it wasn't.

Jake Wade

That 218/218 installed at 109 ICL is going to be as close to your old original camshaft from the three you listed. Should have really good low end and throttle response.

Pulse Red

Thanks for the reply, fascinating comments. When looking at cams in general, to get something that lists the rpm range starting in that 1200 to 1500 rpm range, you seem to need that intake duration between 212 and 216 (lower for truck cams). Does the single pattern change this?

I had read that with split duration cams, if you have ported heads, about 4 degree split was ideal for low to mid range. I had wondered if that was also why the 216/220 and 214/217 worked well for me.

Pulse Red

I hesitated to do this before purely because I don't know the advance on the three prospective cams but I have used +4 so I could form some sort of comparison.

I have added the 3 cams of mine (214/217, 216/220 and 218/226) I have been comparing plus the 3 prospective cams (215/223, 218/218 and 219/223).

68Formula

First of all, ignore the rpm range values. Those are a rough guideline and in no way consistently defined from vendor to vendor. Only useful if you're comparing cams sold by the same vendor.

CamMotion: 41 IVC with -10 degrees OL vs.
Texas Speed: 38 IVC, -6 degrees OL.
The earlier closure is why the TSP had more torque, but still carried the power further because of increased OL. Hard to say how much the lift came into play without the head flow, but probably helped on the top end a little.

CompCams: 34.5 IVC and -5 OL
Slight duration decrease and much earlier IVC means more torque low than the TSP, but won't carry as far on the top end (probably start to curve down where the CamMotion did) even with the slight increase in overlap. Should idle same as TSP. Great street manners. Work with a stock or mild torque convertor. P.S. Low end about as good as your old 214, but still more top end.

Howard: same 38 IVC as the TSP. Mild decrease in OL (-8).
Expect similar low speed torque to TSP, and then somewhere in between the original two curves power-wise at the higher rpms. Don't know if you see a noticeable improvement in idle, but at least as good as the TSP. Work with a stock but prefer at least a mild convertor.

Lunati: nearly same IVC (37.5) and more overlap (-3)
This one will probably be most like the TSP overall curve-wise. May even carry peak power higher and further with additional lift (most potential to), but again hard to assess without head flow. It will have the most aggressive idle. Be pushing it if trying to use with a stock convertor. Best with at least a mild or medium stall.

68Formula

Comp: 112+5
Howards: 113+4
Lunati: 112+4

Jake Wade

Agree

Pulse Red

Fantastic posting, thanks 68Formula! A lot to digest there, let me think on this. Only caveat I'll add is that my car is a 6 speed manual, so no concerns with stall speed. For how I use the car in slow, built up traffic, I don't like the cams where you have to rev the car to make it go anywhere, I want the power right there. I only wind it out when I take a fun drive out on the back roads. It's been quite fun winding the TSP cam out when I do though

I don't have flow figures for my 241 CNC ported heads but they are very good. They made my original combo and added a heap of power. They're designed by one of the biggest head porters in Aus for bigger cams but work great for me. Compression is about 11:1 I believe, original Shop couldn't remember as these heads have been on the car a long time and was originally a "secret" combo along with the 214/217 cam (I had a report run to find out what it was).

Understood regarding the rpm values. They just all seemed to make sense based on the specs of each cam and were very handy, so I used them. Shame.

Pulse Red

Thank you! I'll update the Comp.