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Where do you find mixing early dino oil with synthetics is without any possible harm?
The statement is not supported by any study ever conducted by SAE or STLE, nor any data from OEM engineers, petroleum engineers, and tribologists of the era or since. The only base oils that will not blend with group I or II conventional are water soluble polyalkylene glycols (PAG) and perfluoropolyethers (PFPE), neither of which are currently or formerly used in engine oils. All base oils, with the exception of these, are fully miscible.
Originally Posted by grinder11
Virtually every motorcycle, automotive, and snowmobile magazines 50 years ago claimed the oils did not work well together. You're saying everyone was wrong? Where did you find this info? I am not challenging you, I am curious, because I remember that era well. I believe even Amsoil, one of the earlier synthetic's, recommended against it, though that last item I'm not totally sure about. Please elaborate......
Some magazine articles of that era also made the claim that engines need backpressure to make power so take a lot of what you read there with a grain of salt. When you read a magazine, you're reading the opinion of the author/journalist/editor. The vast majority of these people are not engineers, but rather just enthusiasts who like to write articles. It's not uncommon for them to get things wrong and spread myths, especially when promoting a sponsor. The Amsoil deal was likely a marketing pitch out of context. They didn't want you mixing the oils because they likely wanted you using Amsoil exclusively. A lot of myths are started because of misleading marketing campaigns. The whole 3k miles or 3 months thing is a prime example of that. (It was a Pennzoil - Quaker State ad campaign with no basis in any oil studies.)
I thought the "W" in the oil formula was for "WEIGHT"
like 20W-50 = 20 weight that had the physical lubricating properties and viscosity of a 50 weight oil not for "winter"... when i lived in south florida for 14 plus years basically at night time for roughly 6 to 7 weeks was our "winter" and 2..4..5 nights it might drop into the 30s and once in a while under 32 for a few hours but daytime would be in the mid to upper 60s so no real winter to speak of. So why would the W mean winter in 1/4 of the country basically has no winter to speak of.?
i thought i had my answers and now back to being confused again.
does anyone make a synthetic break in oil with a high % of zinc in it? If so...then thats what i will use to break in all the new parts and change the oil back to mobile 1 after 500 miles and do 3...4...5 heat cycles first 2..3 days
run it for 20...25 minutes and let it cool off for 4..hours thrn again and again. Should be able to do 3 to 4 a day so should not be too bad to do and enaure the hardening of the parts and wearing the new parts all are as protected as possible without going to any extreme lengths and spending a fortune for excessive unnecessary things...procedures.
breaking in an 80 thousand dollar marine vig block is fairly straight forward and they do it on the dyno because oil changes in boats is a pain in the *** using vacuums to suck the oil out vs a drain plug. No trap door in the hull of a boat and thry use high zinc break in oil break it in and dyno test n tune and change the oil after all that is done and engine has 1..2..3 hours on it and boom ready to go and these marine engines are all without transmissions so you need to run a supercharged 572 cid 1000 hp engine like if it was your cars engine running it everyday everywhere you went in 1st gear for its entire service life. That is an extremely rough life for these engines running 3500...4500.5500.6500 rpm for 100 to 1000 hours over 1 to ??? Years
so also why roller engines are better suited for extreme duty service so these LS are full roller setups (well mine is with the full roller rockers i bought) so the assembly lube and if i can find a high zinc synthetic is what ill use or a high zinc additive with the mobile 1 mix is what ill use. Amd cut the oil filter open after 500 miles to enaure its not the metallic paint luster that makes you cringe on first sight...
also magazine articles dont just have the authors opinions they are required to do.research and talk to manufacturers and find out what baseline testing and advanced testing is done and what their standards are and how they prove a product is doing what it should vs not and how a product is better than another one and keep moving forward to better their products and oils ...lubricants have standards and weights n measures world wide ao not all articles are just an authors thoughts sometimes you will see a line like (this is the opinion of the author) in an article which im fine with and the responsible thing to write ao you the reader know its an opinion not fact based info.
these forums are not fact based they are shared experiences and opinions based on writers experiences of ehat you have been exposed to and seen but has anyone seen it all? Only mfg testing and companies doing standards weights n measurements have seen almost all i would think?
this should not be that difficult a topic... i just wanted to enaure if there is a golden standard on swapping everyrhing from oil pumps camshafts valve springs seals and all i was following a industry standard practice not to cause an argument or ruffle any feathers and certainly do somwthing wrong causing my engine im trying to extend its service life by another 25 plus years have it implode on me in 4 minutes and then need to find a new engine to start from scratch and build a new one...
j
Seems to me since you aren’t doing the bottom end, the simple use of break in lube on the cam, roller wheels, pushrod ends and valve stem tips would suffice.
If you want to use break in oil, that’s fine. Summit has either 30w or 10w-30 mineral based with ZDDP.
I used it last time I had my engine apart. IIRC, it’s green colored.
I thought the "W" in the oil formula was for "WEIGHT"
like 20W-50 = 20 weight that had the physical lubricating properties and viscosity of a 50 weight oil not for "winter"... when i lived in south florida for 14 plus years basically at night time for roughly 6 to 7 weeks was our "winter" and 2..4..5 nights it might drop into the 30s and once in a while under 32 for a few hours but daytime would be in the mid to upper 60s so no real winter to speak of. So why would the W mean winter in 1/4 of the country basically has no winter to speak of.?
i thought i had my answers and now back to being confused again.
does anyone make a synthetic break in oil with a high % of zinc in it?
The "W" has always stood for winter. A lot of people mistakenly think it stands for weight. I'm not sure where the term "weight" got started when referring to an oil's viscosity. It's not in any scientific literature as such. The actual weight or relative density of engine oils are roughly the same (.840-.860, ~7.1 lbs/gal) regardless if it's a straight 0 grade or Nitro 70.
A 20W-50 means it has the cold pumping properties of a 20 grade (measured in dynamic viscosity at 4°F) and the viscosity of a 50 grade oil at operating temperature. (measured in kinematic viscosity at 212°F) A 20W-50 must fall within the follow parameters...
<9,500 cP dynamic (pumping) viscosity @ 4°F
Between 16.3 and 21.9 cSt kinematic (pouring) viscosity @ 212°F
High Temp, High Shear (HTHS, shear resistance @ 300°F) rating >3.7 cP
Oil grades seem simple on the surface, but there's a lot of complexity to how oils are formulated to meet them.
Originally Posted by 41ApacheWarParty
do 3...4...5 heat cycles first 2..3 days, run it for 20...25 minutes and let it cool off for 4..hours thrn again and again.
Yes. Heat cycling is the most crucial part of the break-in.
Originally Posted by 41ApacheWarParty
also magazine articles dont just have the authors opinions they are required to do.research and talk to manufacturers and find out what baseline testing and advanced testing is done and what their standards are and how they prove a product is doing what it should vs not and how a product is better than another one and keep moving forward to better their products and oils ...lubricants have standards and weights n measures world wide ao not all articles are just an authors thoughts sometimes you will see a line like (this is the opinion of the author) in an article which im fine with and the responsible thing to write ao you the reader know its an opinion not fact based info.
these forums are not fact based they are shared experiences and opinions based on writers experiences of ehat you have been exposed to and seen but has anyone seen it all? Only mfg testing and companies doing standards weights n measurements have seen almost all i would think?
The manufacturers commonly skew things as well to favor their product. Lucas is notorious for that, so is STP. "Engine oil is not enough." lol Marketing is full of myths and nonsense.
Originally Posted by 41ApacheWarParty
this should not be that difficult a topic... i just wanted to enaure if there is a golden standard on swapping everyrhing from oil pumps camshafts valve springs seals and all i was following a industry standard practice not to cause an argument or ruffle any feathers and certainly do somwthing wrong causing my engine im trying to extend its service life by another 25 plus years have it implode on me in 4 minutes and then need to find a new engine to start from scratch and build a new one...
j
I wasn't intending to make the topic difficult. I just wanted to give more information. That said, the topic of oil is much, much deeper than most realize.
does anyone make a synthetic break in oil with a high % of zinc in it?
I forgot to respond to this...
There are synthetic break-in oils out there. High Performance Lubricants makes a break-in oil that's straight group III synthetic base oil with a load of ZDDP. They make it with group III because they don't have conventional base oils at their plant, they only do synthetics. Group III synthetic is fine for break-in because the essential properties of friction coefficient, solvency, and additive response are about the same as group II conventional. It's group IV PAO and group V POE/AN synthetics that aren't desired for break-in. The majority of dedicated break-in oils will be group I/II conventional as it's cheaper.
There are synthetic break-in oils out there. High Performance Lubricants makes a break-in oil that's straight group III synthetic base oil with a load of ZDDP. They make it with group III because they don't have conventional base oils at their plant, they only do synthetics. Group III synthetic is fine for break-in because the essential properties of friction coefficient, solvency, and additive response are about the same as group II conventional. It's group IV PAO and group V POE/AN synthetics that aren't desired for break-in. The majority of dedicated break-in oils will be group I/II conventional as it's cheaper.
So which oil do you suggest I purchase if its not recommended to mix synthetics and standard non syn oils that are suited for break in and at what weight should I use for the break in for that first few hundred miles before I swap back to Mobile 1 again?
WS6 store does not provide the service that Jegs and Summit do to heat treat and ( I forget the technical name for it) but they treat the cam for longevity but the WS5 store does not offer this service.
Thank you for all the help and advice everyone.............
So which oil do you suggest I purchase if its not recommended to mix synthetics and standard non syn oils that are suited for break in and at what weight should I use for the break in for that first few hundred miles before I swap back to Mobile 1 again?
WS6 store does not provide the service that Jegs and Summit do to heat treat and ( I forget the technical name for it) but they treat the cam for longevity but the WS5 store does not offer this service.
Thank you for all the help and advice everyone.............
Jason
I'm partial to Driven BR30 for break-in. Do several heat cycles over 100-250 miles. Then switch to your choice of Mobil 1.
Thanks, Poly. I can understand the manufacturers wanting only their oil in the crankcase, so they've resorted to "scare tactics." I think the backpressure issue possibly came from misunderstanding how 2 cycle engines work. They didnt need backpressure, they use a reflective sound wave produced by the expansion chamber/exhaust system to kind of turbocharge a two cycle engine. Most don't realize that it's the modern exhaust system on 2 stroke racing engines that produces the superior to 4 stroke power. Until the late 60s, early 70s, 4 strokes were very competitive, and usually superior, to 2 strokes. The modern exhaust is what makes the 2 stroke power superior........
Check out this blog about motor oil engineering test data provided by a Mechanical Engineer where he merely posts the FACTS that the Science of Physics and Chemistry proves.
Check out this blog about motor oil engineering test data provided by a Mechanical Engineer where he merely posts the FACTS that the Science of Physics and Chemistry proves.
540ratblog.wordpress.com
Please don't. That blog is the laughing stock of the oil community. It's all conjecture. His oil film strength numbers are not accurate as there's no possible way for them to be that accurate. There's only 2 machines in the world that can somewhat accurately measure film strength, which I know he doesn't have access to. Even if he did, the best result they can give is a range with a typical pass or fail above a certain yield with up to a +/- 15,000 psi margin of error. He's pulling those numbers out of his ***.
Even if the numbers were accurate, they're irrelevant. Film strength is a gear oil spec, not an engine oil spec. Engine oils aren't subjected to that kind of pressure unlike gear oils that see extreme forces between gear teeth. The lowest film strength on his "list" is still higher than the pressure seen in 11,000 hp top fuel engines at 70 psi boost on nitromethane at 8500 rpm.
Please don't. That blog is the laughing stock of the oil community. It's all conjecture. His oil film strength numbers are not accurate as there's no possible way for them to be that accurate. There's only 2 machines in the world that can somewhat accurately measure film strength, which I know he doesn't have access to. Even if he did, the best result they can give is a range with a typical pass or fail above a certain yield with up to a +/- 15,000 psi margin of error. He's pulling those numbers out of his ***.
Even if the numbers were accurate, they're irrelevant. Film strength is a gear oil spec, not an engine oil spec. Engine oils aren't subjected to that kind of pressure unlike gear oils that see extreme forces between gear teeth. The lowest film strength on his "list" is still higher than the pressure seen in 11,000 hp top fuel engines at 70 psi boost on nitromethane at 8500 rpm.
Please don't. That blog is the laughing stock of the oil community. It's all conjecture. His oil film strength numbers are not accurate as there's no possible way for them to be that accurate. There's only 2 machines in the world that can somewhat accurately measure film strength, which I know he doesn't have access to. Even if he did, the best result they can give is a range with a typical pass or fail above a certain yield with up to a +/- 15,000 psi margin of error. He's pulling those numbers out of his ***.
Even if the numbers were accurate, they're irrelevant. Film strength is a gear oil spec, not an engine oil spec. Engine oils aren't subjected to that kind of pressure unlike gear oils that see extreme forces between gear teeth. The lowest film strength on his "list" is still higher than the pressure seen in 11,000 hp top fuel engines at 70 psi boost on nitromethane at 8500 rpm.
Thank you for calling out BS when you see it AND telling why. So much for "FACTS"....
That "mechanical engineer" should get his creds pulled for spreading his BS.
Wix filter ....got a part number for a Wix filter that has the increased capacity? Always hated how small the ac delco oil filters are for these. My old small blocks and big block Chevy's always had very large filters and these LS engines have the smallest tiniest pathetic filters... always wondered why...
friggin Toyota corolla with a lawnmower engine has a bigger filter than these LS engines have.... kooky
Standard Wix is #51042, 1" longer Wix you asked about is #51522.......
Racer-X, I respect your opinion but I don't believe that is accurate since at least the late 1990's. My opinion comes from doing exactly that on five older higher mileage cars.
It's 100% Urban Legend today, if the conventional oil was changed at the recommended intervals. Given that probably 25% of the general population actually maintains their cars & trucks as recommended it could be a crap shoot in some cases of course. Know the vehicle and its service history.
However, ran a small block chevy for eight years & ~165,000 miles on the poorly regarded Quaker State 5w-30 back in the 1990's before switching to Mobile 1 5w-30 synthetic. No issues at all, the engine ran perfect, didn't leak when it was swapped out in 2015 with 389,500 miles on it.
Swapped to Mobile 5w-30 synthetic in my 2006 Tundra in 2014 that had 126,000 miles, no issues in 2022 with 194,000 miles and counting.
Swapped a 91 RS Camaro w~/108,000 miles that had had conventional Penzoil 5w-30 since new to Mobile 5w-30 synthetic, other than cleaning out gunk and build up and the oil pressure increase○ by ~8 psi no issues or changes. Did several ~1,000 mile oil changes to get it cleaned out.
Picked up a 02 Z28 w/239,000 miles in 2018 that had had conventional Penzoil 5w-30 since new to Mobile 5w-30 synthetic. Did several ~1,000 mile oil changes to get it cleaned out. No issues other than oil consumption dropped from 1 quart ~750 miles to 1 quart every 3,000 miles.
Swapped my 72 Vette's original 350 that had ran straight weight 30 or 10w-30 Penzoil (depending on season) since the 1970's to Mobile 5w-30 synthetic in the late 1990's. Zero oil related issues. Motor was still ran decent when swapped out for a stroker in 2010.
No leaks at all on an almost 400,000 mile engine??? Boy, did you get lucky. Put 399,000 miles on my '03 3.8L Buick LeSabre, and it was leaking everywhere, lol. Put 370,000 on my '95 Grand Cherokee 5.2L (a 318 Dodge, by any other name!!), and it leaked everywhere, too. Don't think the "no leaks" part had anything to do with the oil......
03-18-2022, 06:47 PM
