41ApacheWarParty

Afternoon all,

I am still amassing parts for my cam install and my under hood beautification process coming up soon after I finish ripping out and replacing all the front suspension on my 71 Chevelle currently stuck on stands in my garage, then I have an 80 corvette to finish prepping and painting then the 98 WS6 comes in for its full tear down, cam swap and all internals replaced and then going back together with tons of new Hi-Po parts and accessories meant to give it more go and more show as well. That being said, Lot of my marine experience tells me to use "break in" oil with either high zinc content or something similar (whatever man made hooptie replacement they use these days?)
Now as memory serves me typically full roller setups do not require that but other items can benefit from it as well as the cam lifters, rockers, push rods, and on and on and on cannot be harmed by it and will always help metal to metal parts cushion their seating process. Such as push rods to rocker arm cups and tips and valve springs to seats and with new retainers and timing chains with new sprockets, new oil pump internal gears meshing together and all that type of stuff. My list of parts I have purchased for this cam install has become literally INSANE but since I am going for the longevity aspect / show and of course more power i just prefer to do it all one time the right way and not race to get it done, take my time and if it takes a few days it takes a few days, if it takes a week so be it. Should not be terrible but barring any problems to bring me to a full stop, i should be fine in a weekend or so.
Any suggestions on oil you all have used to the individuals that have done their own cam swaps? What did you all use and why? Just typical Mobile 1 synthetic blend or any additives with the Mobile 1 Synthetic?
What weight Mobile 1 did you use for break in? 20W50? 10W40? 10W30? 5W30? 0W30? i would think the thickest oil for break in would be best so Ill have to find some 20W50 to use or sometimes in winter when the temps being in the teens or single digits makes the viscosity so thick I do my oil changes with either mixed 20W50 with 10W40 or 5W30 to make sure its faster to get the oil to places after the car has been sitting for a few days to a week or more untouched, and it leaks down a fair amount....... (Sort of why I am waiting for Spring to do the cam, so I don't freeze my a$$ off and the temps do not bother the oil and oil pressure (I did purchase the Melling 10295 oil pump **high pressure standard volume pump** for a touch of extra insurance keeping everything well lubricated regardless what time of year and what oil or mixture I have in the car at that particular time.
Thank you all, Any info would be greatly appreciated.
J

G Atsma

If the engine is built with standard clearances, the standard weight will do.
You do NOT need a thicker oil for break-in. It would serve no purpose with all the new tight clearances. It would do more harm than good.
New cars and trucks come with the normal weight oil from the factory. Thinner oil gets into tighter places a lot faster than thicker oils.

Racer-X-

For a Gen-III engine, unless you're doing something really strange with clearances, 5W30 is probably the best choice.

There's a school of thought that conventional oil, possibly with a zinc additive, is best after a rebuild until the first oil change at 1,000 to 1,500 miles. The thought is that with a bit more wear, the rings seat better, and things break in better. I've gone both ways on that, and I've had great results either way, with some issues either way. With no noticeable difference from trying both, I'd go with synthetic on the initial fill. Mobil 1 is pretty good, but I generally prefer the Pennzoil Platinum line.

Oh, and use a Wix filter. More capacity to trap dirt and "wear byproducts", and it's capable of flowing the full volume of a standard volume oil pump. The AC Delco filters are rated for low volumes (under 3gpm), and the bypass valve opens at less than 3,500 RPMs even on a brand new AC Delco filter.

41ApacheWarParty

Nahhh not doing anything out of rhe ordinary but i am replacing just about every part...gasket...seal....o ring and everything i can reach while its apart and i can have the access to it while its all blown apart...
so the oil pump pickup tube o ring and reinforcement bracket and bolts to new coils new rockers new pushrods new plugs new wires new springs new seats new valve seals (with the integrated seats) new oil pump new timing chain and new sprockets new polished timing chain 2 piece cover all new seals for timing chain cover new cam retaining plate with integrated o ring seal... new valley pan new knock sensors new intake manifold new throttle body 102mm new 4 inch mass air flow sensor housing with blade style maf sensor ... new I. A. C..... new map sensor.... new knock sensor harness..... new polished 4 corner steam coolant spider collection system with all new gaskets .... new 4 inch intake lid and filter. New beehive springs with new retainers... new chrome water pump and chrome pulley.... new chrome power steering pump and new billet aluminum power steering pump pulley and mirror polished power steering pump reservoir.... new harmonic balancer/pulley setup.... new taylor spark plug wires and new mirror polished spark plug wire looms.... fabricating my own mirror polished valve covers converted to coil covers (or ill opt for the coil relocation kit and run the long taylor wires from firewall or frame up to looms to each plug...unsure what i am going to do yet) so with ALL of that on an engine with about 130...132 thousand miles i think i can build in a good amount of longevity to this bird to allow her to be road worthy for another 25 years at least... that is what i am hoping for with the new texas speed/WS-6 store ASA high lift hot cam and all this new stuff hoping to hit about 425hp to the rear wheels which for a street car should be about right and fairly stout for a street car... fastest on earth...not by a long shot. But able to hold its own =i think so..
i am building my 71 big block 900 HP supercharged BDS blown Chevelle to be an asphalt ripping fire breathing monster along with my 69 Corvette 454 procharged about 750 or so HP so another big block asphalt shredding monster. I am thinking i do t have room for all these so 1 may have to go...probably the chevelle but not until im done painting it. Body work interior all new tubular suspension im doing now and once it rolls i can push it out of the garage and pull the bird in to do this cam swap and all the other stuff. Lots to do so nwed to order the right oil since i cant find 10w30 mobile 1 anywhere these days. I want to break it in with a little thicker oil to make sure nothing gets screwed up on initial start up even though i have the red line assembly lube and the spray on valve train assembly lube to coat the hell out of the rockers and springs and pushrods and the cam will be slathered in the red line paste gunk lube with pushrod ends and valve stem ends all with a blob of it too, timing chain sprayed so it should be good and break in well... guess you dont need to rev it to 2500 to 2900 rpm up n down for the 20 ish minutes like a flat tappet setup from yesteryear used to be done? Just turn the key after reinstalling the tuned computer and let it idle by itself? Heat cycle it a few times or is that not necessary either? Or is there an "official break in" procedure for these? WS-6 store says nothing on their website about it. Any one follow a procedure or just turn the key and let it idle while your smile gets bigger and bigger as the new lumpy idle from that 110 LSA .600 lift will give you?

41ApacheWarParty

Wix filter ....got a part number for a Wix filter that has the increased capacity? Always hated how small the ac delco oil filters are for these. My old small blocks and big block Chevy's always had very large filters and these LS engines have the smallest tiniest pathetic filters... always wondered why...
friggin Toyota corolla with a lawnmower engine has a bigger filter than these LS engines have.... kooky

G Atsma

The big secret to a good break-in is to vary speeds and loads as much as possible to get good ring seating.
Maybe use cheaper dino (non-synth) oil and change it AND filter at 500, then about 1000, then 2000 to get any hidden crud and assembly lube out. Then use synthetic at regular intervals.

grinder11

iTrader: (1)

I agree with non synthetic for break in. Some builders actually prefer non-detergent oil for the first 300-500 miles........

41ApacheWarParty

I thought you should not go back to conventional oil after going synthetic
or is that some urban legend bs nonsense as well?

G Atsma

If breaking in an engine, you aren't "going back" to anything. It's a fresh start.

grinder11

iTrader: (1)

Not an urban legend. At one time, 40 or 50 years ago, this was SOP!! Back then, the early synthetics didn't play well with dino oil. Worries today, not so much. If engine is new, you wont be going back to anything, because there hasnt been any oil, yet....

41ApacheWarParty

The bearings and crank, rods, pistons and rings are all original and not being touched, Lifters are not being touched, just a cam swap and then swapping every part I can reach with the engine disassembled like I said above, Oil pump, timing chain, Rocker arms, Valve springs and seals, seats, cam, push rods, intake and TB, cam retaining plate and seal, oil pump pickup tube o ring seal, Timing chain cover, new water pump new PS Pump belt and valley pan with knock sensors and 4 corner steam vent collection system is what I am replacing along with a higher temp thermostat because the one I have now barely makes the engine warm and in winter I get really no heat at all with the 3 core all aluminum radiator, so thats what I am changing out for new parts but again the short block bottom end is all original and staying that way I have no reason to pull the engine and swap any of those items at this time. So that's why I asked which oil to use for break in, the cam bearings and crank, rod bearings are all factory GM from 1998 stock.
Thanks
Jason

G Atsma

So you're not really breaking in anything, since there is no breaking in a roller lifter cam and associated valvetrain parts.

Tyler Dietzenbach

iTrader: (5)

Urban Legend

Racer-X-

Wix 51042 is the filter, IIRC.

As to why, it's the bean counters at GM. There were budget caps on most parts in the car. For oil filters, up until into the mid 200x decade, the budget for an oil filter was $2 each. That eventually lead to doing away with the outer case and using the "cartridge" style filters like the Eco-Tec 4 bangers, the HFV6 engines and others.
Switching to conventional for one or two oil changes is not a problem. Especially if all the seals have been replaced. But seeing your later post, you aren't really breaking in the entire engine. The new parts are pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things.

The part of that caution that's not an urban legend is you really shouldn't change from conventional oil to synthetic after using conventional for a long time (many years). The reason is that the synthetic oil is a much better solvent and the detergent packages in synthetics are much stronger. It will clean the conventional oil gunk and residue out of the seals and expose existing cracks/leaks that were "plugged" by gummy goo from the conventional oil. Synthetic oil doesn't cause the leaks, they were already there, but it will open them up and let them flow.

41ApacheWarParty

Is that goo/gunk you refer to called paraffin? That's what the sludge is on those old engines you end up taking apart that sit for a long time and its like you need a putty knife to scrape it out of the pan and scrub it off the heads etc. I remember a super long time ago Pennzoil was the highest concentration of Paraffin in conventional oils back in the 90s and 80s and earlier so that is why I always stay away from Pennzoil because my 78 Trans Am was all gunked up with it and ended up with a spun bearing and severe rod knocks from it.
But also that is why I started this thread to find out with all the new parts and cam and all what precautions and what specific procedure (if any recommendations) on how to prep the cam and other parts, and what to do on initial start up, all my boat and old big blocks i would rev to 2000 to 2500 and a little higher and heat cycle it a few times but for the first 20 minutes to keep the car off idle and no more than 2800=2900 but no less than around 1300-1400 RPM and that would set the cam and new parts into their new home well and after that first break in 20 min period just heat cycle it 2-3 times a day for 20 or so minutes keeping a very close eye on oil pressure and change the oil after 50-80 or so miles, then again at 1000 miles after that and then at 2000 then back to the norm maintenance routine with break in oil for the first 2 changes and a good idea to get a can opener and look into the oil filter and ensure no UH OH and the OH CRAP shavings and chunks of metal and or gaskets or silicone or hell anything stuck in there.
So that is all I was trying to find out, what oil, and what procedure you all do to get your cam situated and seated heat cycled properly and all. I guess you all basically do nothing and as soon as you button your car up from the cam/spring and whatever else parts you change, you just fire it up and drive it like you always have not giving the it a second thought is what I am taking away from these comments. So that is what I was wanting to know.
Jason

Racer-X-

Pennzoil today, especially their synthetic oils, is a very long way from 1970's oil.

Pennzoil and Mobil 1 (and many other consumer "synthetic oils") use primarily Group III base oils. However, Pennzoil (and Quaker State, another brand from the same owners) is the only oil on the market that synthesizes their Group III base oil from natural gas. Mobil 1 and others (Valvoline, Castrol, etc.) refine their Group III base oil from crude oil, crack it down and then synthesize/reform it into the Group III base components. In theory, the resulting base oils should be substantially similar, but in actual practice, there are fewer impurities in natural gas than in crude oil, so there's much less chance for impurities to make it through the processes and into the final product.

As for the break in procedure, you're not going to hurt anything by varying the revs and doing a couple of heat cycles (warm up, shut down and let it completely cool, repeat). That could be slightly beneficial to your new cam. But modern parts with modern alloys and metallurgy are strong enough that they don't absolutely need that treatment, and "slam the hood and drive it" certainly won't damage anything, assuming everything is assembled properly and in spec. As has been pointed out, varying the revs and operating it throughout the designed rev range is important.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Racer-X, ​​​​​I respect your opinion but I don't believe that is accurate since at least the late 1990's. My opinion comes from doing exactly that on five older higher mileage cars.

It's 100% Urban Legend today, if the conventional oil was changed at the recommended intervals. Given that probably 25% of the general population actually maintains their cars & trucks as recommended it could be a crap shoot in some cases of course. Know the vehicle and its service history.

However, ran a small block chevy for eight years & ~165,000 miles on the poorly regarded Quaker State 5w-30 back in the 1990's before switching to Mobile 1 5w-30 synthetic. No issues at all, the engine ran perfect, didn't leak when it was swapped out in 2015 with 389,500 miles on it.

Swapped to Mobile 5w-30 synthetic in my 2006 Tundra in 2014 that had 126,000 miles, no issues in 2022 with 194,000 miles and counting.

Swapped a 91 RS Camaro w~/108,000 miles that had had conventional Penzoil 5w-30 since new to Mobile 5w-30 synthetic, other than cleaning out gunk and build up and the oil pressure increase○ by ~8 psi no issues or changes. Did several ~1,000 mile oil changes to get it cleaned out.

Picked up a 02 Z28 w/239,000 miles in 2018 that had had conventional Penzoil 5w-30 since new to Mobile 5w-30 synthetic. Did several ~1,000 mile oil changes to get it cleaned out. No issues other than oil consumption dropped from 1 quart ~750 miles to 1 quart every 3,000 miles.

Swapped my 72 Vette's original 350 that had ran straight weight 30 or 10w-30 Penzoil (depending on season) since the 1970's to Mobile 5w-30 synthetic in the late 1990's. Zero oil related issues. Motor was still ran decent when swapped out for a stroker in 2010.

41ApacheWarParty

Great info to know. Thank you for filling in the blanks for me. As far as everything else, I will do the heat cycle a few times I have no issues with that. Remember this is just a street car, no track use at all, so whatever the final HP numbers are is what they are. i am not trying to hit a specific number or need any torque numbers to come in at XXX specifically, just want a fun car to use and last me a long time and not be ashamed when I open my hood that it looks like GM vomited all the wires and harnesses everywhere so I plan to do a lot of wiring clean up.
The OIL info is great, and yes I am sure over time the Pennzoil folks got their stuff together, compared to what was in my 78 Trans Am that exploded about 5 months after I bought it, it was doomed from the get, so a neglected car/engine is a neglected car and engine period. Thank you for all this information, Very helpful and thank you for the WIX filter P/N i will order a few to drop in my toolbox for future use. Hate having to chase down stuff last minute so I like to be prepared with a few gallons of the correct Mobile1 and the filters, to date I have used the so called "Premium" filters but from various articles on filters, even premium does not mean jack squat and i guess its more a preference of brand and looking at the various ways they are built/manufactured but mostly they are all pretty much built in the mass produced cheap sense. So you just have to basically make the best choice of mostly all bad or cheaply manufactured filters. In all the articles I read and watched not one stood out so far above the rest that it sways your decision forever. From Fram to AC delco, motorcraft, Purolator, purolator premium, Royal Purple, K&N and on and on and on they all seemed pretty much the same so it is what it is. I remember Fram back in the day had a great reputation for being one of the best but to stay competitively priced they had to lessen their methods since not really anyone is going to be paying 45 bucks for a disposable oil filter when the one next to it for 7 bucks is basically the same thing anyway but a steel ring instead of cardboard and the elements are all paper and mostly the same length and same corrugated/folded depth between pleats. Anyway nuff of that I will opt for the Wix due to the increase in overall volume since the others are all so teeny tiny and hold like a pint at best compared to my Big Block Chevy filters that hold like half a gallon and my F350 diesel Ford Dually 7.3 Power Stroke has a filter that is almost a swimming pool in size comparison.......
With the 110 LSA .600 lift High Lift Hot Cam and the single beehive springs and everything else I am doing, the rev limit should be in and around 6800 but honestly for a street car I rarely bring it up to 6. I would say on a normal day with energy, loud music bangin, and all on the local bypass around here I might bring it up to about 5500=5750 and thats about it. So seeing the north end of 6 is really not a thing. So keeping it under the RPM redline wont be at all a problem. ALso why I did not opt for the dual valve springs, saw no real need to turn this over the 7K mark. So I just hope in 25 more years I can say, Time for a NEW CAM and by then who knows what advancements will be around, Flux Capacitor......... fluxing in everyone's cars??? Maybe instead of copper and silicone spark plug wires it will be fiber optic glass cables or even the bondicator with increased platinum infused gonkulator surge will trigger the shitiel valves to articulate in a semi sphereical direction preventing the splunkigator from releasing an overage of humidity controlled alkilied fuel combination with the strafer studs capacity reached but under its max limits? Or who knows, maybe we will all have a shard of plutonium and nuclear fission will propel our flying cars or George Jetson will have invented the briefcase mobile, or a small jet turbine shaft driven might propel our cars, who knows. Just hope this electric car push does not make gas stations close in the masses leaving us with one or two per town charging like 288 dollars a gallon because my boat is one hungry fuel sucking bitch at 315/325 gallons per hour of high test 94 let alone my big block cars with those things, what are they called? Oh yes Carburetors........... Those sloppy mechanical fuel puking double pumping slobs.
Thanks for all the help, advice and suggestions, Greatly appreciated Racer X and GAtsma !!! And All of you!! thank you all!!!!
Jason

Polyalphaolefin

Driven BR30 is my recommendation for break-in oil for the new cam. Even though you're only replacing the valvetrain, a roller cam still has microasperities from the machining process that will break off during break-in. You also still need to establish an anti-wear tribofilm between the lobe and roller lifter. You can get away with not using a break-in oil or following a proper break-in procedure, but using a proper break-in oil and procedure is still the ideal scenario.

With stock bearings and thus stock clearances, stick with a 30 grade oil. The first number is dependent on your climate as it references the minimum temperature for cold start pumpability, hence the "W" stands for winter.

0W-xx = -31°F
5W-xx = -22°F
10W-xx = -14°F
15W-xx = -6°F
20W-xx = 4°F

GM recommends 5W-30 as a general CYA as they don't know if the vehicle will be sold and driven in Florida or Montana. The second number is the actual oil grade at operating temperature and should stay a 30 grade for your application.

Yes. Detergents are acid neutralizers and ZDDP is an acidic ester. You can see how those two would not like each other. Keeping detergent content low ensures fast and efficient ZDDP activation.

This is 100% myth with zero truth to it. It's never been true.

This is also false. You can switch a high mileage engine to synthetic if you so feel like. It will not harm anything.

Synthetic base oils actually have a lower solvency than conventional, not higher. The exception are group V synthetic esters and naphthalenes which aren't very commonly found in off-the-shelf synthetics due to cost.

The detergent content has no relation to the base oil. Comparing off the shelf API conventional to synthetic oils, the detergent content is the same. Even if there were more detergents, detergents don't clean a dirty engine. Detergents are acid neutralizers that come in the form of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. These same acid neutralizers are sold over the counter under the brand names Tums and Milk of Magnesia. The same way they neutralize acids in your stomach that cause heartburn and indigestion, they neutralize acids in the oil that cause oxidation and corrosion. They exist in oil formulas to keep the oil clean, not clean the engine.

Correct. They are a long way from even 2000s oil.

Mobil 1 uses GTL (natural gas) base oils as well. The only real advantage GTL base oils have over group III/III+ synthetic is lower carbon footprint and they're cheaper. Some downsides is they don't have very good cold flow and are limited in viscosity range. Group III hydrocracked has superior solvency, friction coefficient, oxidation resistance, and pressure-viscosity coefficient.

grinder11

iTrader: (1)

Where do you find mixing early dino oil with synthetics is without any possible harm? Virtually every motorcycle, automotive, and snowmobile magazines 50 years ago claimed the oils did not work well together. You're saying everyone was wrong? Where did you find this info? I am not challenging you, I am curious, because I remember that era well. I believe even Amsoil, one of the earlier synthetic's, recommended against it, though that last item I'm not totally sure about. Please elaborate......