gametech

iTrader: (1)

You guys are doing this all wrong. You put in a big heads/cam/intake package, then use the Maggie to get back all the low end torque you lost, lol.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

I agree that some cases cam only or cam/heads absolutely make sense. I also understand that some people want to do cam/heads while not having a super aggressive lopey cam or giving up low end torque.

It's not until you spend the big money on the best heads worked by the top guys, port your overpriced fast intake, run aftermarket rockers because your expensive heads need it, buy the expensive lifters to try to squeeze everything out of it, all the bolt ons, etc that the blower starts to make more sense.

I see the guys do this and brag about having 50 more rwhp and 20 more rwtq than your average 243/cam/ls7 lifter/stock rocker combo while spending $4000+ more than the cheaper heads/cam combo (similar to what kfxguy mentioned using cheaper parts). Two pounds of boost will give you more than that.

I also understand the weight some may want to avoid I'm dead set on not going to an iron block for my next build for this reason.

When it comes to track times there are a lot of factors and I do believe an all motor combo can beat a boosted combo with more power in a drag race. I've also done this long enough to know why. First is less weight on the front. Second is the all motor combos that make 700+ rwhp are uber expensive and they generally are more aggressive toward drag times in terms of weight reduction, gearing, converter, suspension, tires, etc.

The 1000 rwhp boosted combo can be very tame, get great gas mileage, have stock gear with an over drive trans, ac, full weight, etc and easily run 9's or even 8's. The 700+ rwhp all motor combo isn't going to drive as close to stock as the boosted 1000 rwhp combo can.

I have roughly $7000 in my motor including the new block and everything it took to assemble it. I have about $8000 in my procharger kit. Originally it was about $6500 when I bought it but I sold the D1x head unit I originally had then bought the F1x with an addition 1500 or so on top of what I got for the D1x. So $15000 in the motor and I can tell you there is no way in hell you are making 700 rwhp all motor and building that motor for $15,000 probably can't do it for $20,000. Also if I completely grenade the motor I'm out the $7000 and the $8000 procharger kit is likely unharmed. If you grenade a $20,000+ all motor combo making over 700 rwhp then you are out $20,000. Either way 700 all motor or 1000 boosted you are spending money on fuel system, trans, rear, etc. I don't see too many all motor guys with stock gearing and an overdrive trans at full weight running 9's but you see boosted cars with all of that running 9's like it's an every day thing.


...but honestly this isn't about which is better all motor or boosted. This is about at what point do you consider boost over spending big money on a heads/cam/full bolt ons combo to try and make 500 rwhp without making sacrifices down low or being stupidly aggressive on the cam? If you want a budget heads/cam combo similar to what kfxguy mentioned that makes sense you can do that on a budget it's not until you get crazy buying uber high end heads/rockers/lifters etc that the blower starts to make more sense to me.

I'm an odd one I admit so I wanted to spur a discussion on this and reasons some guys choose to spend $8000+ on heads/cam/full bolt ons rather than a blower.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

I agree with kfxguy the latest generation of coyote is superior to the LS in many ways. Let’s not forget despite the advancements in aftermarket heads, cams, etc the LS is 20 year old technology.

MuhThugga

"More power" isn't always defined as a threshold of 750 HP, or even 500 HP. Some people are happy with the power gained from headers. It is why camshafts like the GT2-3 remain popular choices, and why 1.8 rockers exist. Gains of 50, 20, or even 10 HP are still gains.

The other aspect of this is that, while the cost of a blower may equate to the total cost of a naturally-aspirated build, the factor you are leaving out of your equation is time. The blower's cost is all at once. The sum of the parts of an NA build can be done over time. A cam swap doesn't require new cylinder heads. New cylinder heads don't require a cam swap. Neither are reliant on a different intake manifold. $8,000 spread out over a few years is much more economically feasible to a lot of people than spending $8,000 in one go.

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

Imo in 2024 you can make the same power more reliably than a wild NA combo with boost. My 6th gen for example. I have around 12k in mods...it's just a stock long block LT1 with a Whipple @ 10-11psi, Fuel system, exhaust. On the street full weight with 20" wheels, it will run consistent mid 10's @ 137 according to dragy. Note that is coming off the line pretty soft(1.8 60ft not wot until 30mph). I have pretty much been running this combo since 2019 with no issues on all stock drive line/suspension. It's the closest "stock like" driving experience you will get from something that makes 250hp more than it did from the factory. I don't think you could achieve this level of reliability with a NA motor @ 700whp. I believe it would need some sort of valvetrain maintenance in a 5yr 15k mil span with over 200 hard pulls.

That being said I like all builds, NA, FI, Nitrous...doesn't matter. I had a decent H/C/I 4th gen, this time I wanted something that behaved more like stock that was a total sleeper but had more power everywhere when I wanted it...that was achieved. But I also still like driving my mild(320whp) 5.3 Yukon. Still slow but runs, sounds, and looks good.

G Atsma

The advantage of the LS is it already has very decent intake and heads. For many, a 30-50HP gain is plenty. For that, put a cam in. That's it.
Of course, a foregone conclusion is to already have a decent air intake setup and good exhaust as first mods.

01CamaroSSTx

iTrader: (3)

It took me seven years of saving and buying parts before replacing the driveline, suspension and exhaust on the 01 SS. The first engine I ever assembled was an LSX and I chose LME to machine the block for the pistons and ARP main and head stud kits, and to install the cam bearings. The rotating assembly and original cylinder heads came from Texas Speed and Martin Smallwood from Tick Performance spec'd the camshaft for me. The transmission was purchased from RPM Transmissions and the S60 from Strange Engineering. There were times when I felt like I'd never see it through but it was a journey I'll cherish forever. I joined LS1Tech around that time of doing all of this work to the car and to take it on was quite overwhelming but the feeling I got seeing the car come together and breath life after seven years was priceless. The driveline has over 20K on it now and I know that I'll never get back the money I've put into it but the car is worth every bit of 25K if not more. I wouldn't take less than 25K if I were to sell it because you couldn't build this car for what I've spent if you tried to with todays prices.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

I’ve had a lot of different builds as well and yes I really appreciate a good big inch high compression motor. I’d love to have a 750 rwhp naturally aspirated combo, but for my budget and desire to be able to cruise around anywhere with close to stock like driveability the Procharger made more sense.

The closest thing I’ve had was a 500 rwhp 408 back in 2005 and that was with an auto. It was my daily but still wasn’t as street friendly as my current 1000 rwhp Procharged combo. Both combos were about the same cost but one had double the power with better street manners as well.

GMRL

Stock long block, at most an aftermarket "LS6 type" cam to extend the rpm range a bit. Maggie 2300 at 7-8 lbs.
That would be pretty much ideal for what you described.
Its a hard fit in a 4th gen, but doable.
Still, the price would be more than most HCI setups.
​​​​​​

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

Everything you guys are saying makes absolute sense. My comment is for the guys that say they want max power naturally aspirated with stock cubes without giving up idle quality and street ability or low rpm torque. To do this you need the best heads money can buy as well as an over priced fast intake with porting, high quality aftermarket rockers and lifters, etc. That costs big money just to get close to or slightly over 500 rwhp out of stock cubes while attempting not to lose anything off idle. At that point you are into blower money which would then have way more power potential and gain more torque at low rpm than any stock cube naturally aspirated LS could ever dream of.

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

It's a little bit harder to built a 4th gen, add a 12 bolt, dealing with the cowl covering half the engine and other misc stuff vs dumping a twin screw on a 5.0, tuning it and go.

GMRL

Its better to just start off with a Vette.
Thats my plan at least

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

LOL...for sure everything is easier when you start with a lighter car and wider tires right off the showroom floor. A C7 zr1 with both direct port and port injection right off the showroom floor is a nice start as well since it's super expensive with the direct port stuff once it's maxed to add port injection.

With a coyote all it seems to take is a procharger slapped on in a weekend to run 9's or even 8's with all the supporting mods. The coyote block is also stronger than the LS. There are sleeved oem block coyotes making 2000 hp reliably no oem aluminum LS block can do that sleeved or not. Cubic inches, cost/availability, and size are the advantages of the LS. The latest generation of coyote has the advantage almost everywhere else especially when making 1500+ hp due to block strength.

I will stick with LS stuff because it fits my budget and what I'm tooled up for and experienced with building. ...and because I don't like fords. Those damn fox bodies with a blown coyote in them though are ********...LOL...best chassis with the latest and greatest ford engine is hard to beat.

GMRL

What I meant about the Vette is that you can get a C5/C6 for not a lot of money. Right off the bat, you dont have to deal with Fbody issues, weak rear, cramped engine bay, etc
C7 ZR1 would be nice is you have $150k to play with.
Speaking of Gen V stuff, that iron block L8T looks like a nice platform for nice power.
As far as the Coyote VS LS thing, I dont really know much about them. I do know both LSLT/Coyote seem to do really well in my neck of the woods.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

Stock block coyote:

01CamaroSSTx

iTrader: (3)

GMRL

Those Coyotes are impressive for sure. Full race car stuff.
I think we got a bit off track from the original convo lol
Speaking of stock block stuff. I like this one. LT1 Camaro was my first car so I have a soft spot for them

Abs

bald eagle cam? If so, 111 or 114?

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

Definitely impressive especially with the manual and the old LT1 does have some pros over the LS like head gasket sealing. That is still not making near the power that coyote I shared is. I think he trapped nearly 230 mph with the coyote that is alot of power I think close to 3000 hp. I'm not a ford fan in the slightest, but I am smart enough to be aware of what the enemy is capable of. I learned to always be aware of what the enemy is capable of 20 years ago when I street raced a highly modded evo on the street with my heads/cam GTO. The race was over by 60' and there was no way I was running him down. It's the same lesson I taught folks in the 90's with my turbo buick regal.

Anyway as it relates to this subject the LS has plenty of advantages over other platforms, but it is worth acknowledging the stock block strength of the coyote being able to go further than a stock block LS luckily we have aftermarket block options.

01CamaroSSTx

iTrader: (3)

Nearly 3000 hp is being done with the LS platform as well,

https://borowskirace.com/products/3-...39704346755246