Y2K_Frenzy

If you have to throw paying for labor in the mix the top end gets expensive quick. Y’all are talking big power but shoot, 350 horsepower is realtively expensive. If you had to pay someone to put it in I bet you’d have $3k or more “invested” in parts and labor just for a cam swap (starting with a stock engine.)

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Supercharger vs HCI?

Hooking HCI power with ported stock heads on street tires is hard enough. I haven't wanted forced induction power for my daily driver type cars. I'm pretty happy with ~425whp to 475whp.

Too many friends with supercharger or turbo, blew up their engine getting greedy with boost or loss control of their car and totaled it.

I know my level of competency in a 3rd or 4th gen. Basic HCI package w/ported stock heads are enough for me.

Y2K_Frenzy

Bang for buck I think forced induction for the win. But I think the n/a car might last longer. I have a ‘95 Mustang with a Vortech kit on it and the motor needs a rebuild because all the gaskets & seals are blown out. I should’ve done a PCV delete I guess. The blower has been on it for about ten years but it doesn’t have very many miles on it.

LS1Formulation

iTrader: (13)

Nearly? Well over, actually:


As for me, I don't care about mileage or smooth idle, my only considerations are driveline strength and cost to upgrade. This is why my next step for my Camaro is to build a 416 shortblock with the stock heads. I don't want to have to upgrade the driveline any further than I already have ( i.e. ZL1 axle ), and the 416 will give me a nice power increase but not be excessive. It will work with the clutch I have as well. Now, my Firebird is a whole different animal. Once it's dialed in, it's going to be 800+ to the wheels, but the drivetrain is built for beyond that already. Both cars have a very noticeable lope, but the Firebird is built sleeper style so when I am finally done with it, it'll be quieter than a stock one. I'm lucky that I can do everything to my cars myself, besides major fabrication and bodywork, because I would never be able to afford both AND mod both if I had to pay for labor.

01CamaroSSTx

iTrader: (3)

Yeah..I forgot about the Steve Morris Engines LS platform.

GMRL

Nothing against Ford here either, Ive been a Chevy guy my whole life. I like displacement and simplicity. Kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Smooth idle and broad torque curves.
I do like Fords new Godzilla motor. Seems like an LS copy. My brother in law just got a whole motor from the local yank and pay. Im excited to mess with it honestly.
Your also right about the headgasket sealing thing. Ive had many of my LS and gen 2 LT stuff apart many times to have noticed that as well. The 6 bolt stuff definitely helps though.
To go along with your Evo and turbo Buick experiences. I was hooked the first time I drove a dual motor Tesla. The instant torque and power delivery is what many people, including myself chase lol.
So one of those is in my near future. More people are starting to modify them with good results. Definitely not turning my back on V8s, I own several and always will. But man you cant deny the performance.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

Sure but that is with an aftermarket block. The coyote is doing that with a resleeved stock block. No resleeved stock ls block is holding up to 3000 hp AT THE HUBS reliably.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

Again I'm talking resleeved stock block coyotes not aftermarket blocks.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

I'm talking parts only as myself and many others here do all our own work.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

I'm talking about a stock block coyote and you guys are talking about aftermarket blocks. No stock block LS is making 3000 hp at the hubs reliably.

GMRL

Iron 6 bolt LSX block might. Technically its still a stock block lol
Either way, Ill bet money both are on borrowed time at that power level

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

I was watching Hot Rod Garage last night and noticed that some of the supercharged cars were putting down big HP numbers but those numbers don't always translate to fast ET's on a dual purpose car.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

That is true about any combo NA, turbo, procharger, roots, twin screw, or nitrous. Naturally aspirated cars are typically going to be lighter and also typically are going to have a higher stall if auto. Manuals are much more driver dependent obviously. The thing with boost is you don't need as high of a stall as a NA combo and you typically are going to run a taller gear with boost due to the much higher trap speed so long highway drives are much more pleasant with better gas mileage as well if you care about that (I don't).

Tires are the obvious and easiest issue. I run MT 26 x 10-15 stiff wall slicks at the track and either MT ET street R 275/50/15 radials or Nittos on 18" wheels on the street depending upon what I'm up to that day :-)

Double adjustables on all 4 corners make it easy to setup for a comfy street drive or an aggressive drag race setup.

I know the feeling I used to beat boosted combos with my 408 on nitrous and daily drove the car so it always felt nice to win and play the underdog role, but that combo wasn't any cheaper than my current boosted combo that is significantly faster. To your point I didn't pick up as much ET as the power difference would suggest, but as ET gets faster it takes a lot more to gain every single number than it does at slower ETs.

Going from 12's to 11's is easy, going from 11's to 10's is pretty easy as well, going from 10's to 9's got challenging, going from 9's to 8's well I'm not there yet and it's going to take significant changes to get there. Often times at these power levels I'm actually taking out timing advance in the midrange and ramping it back up to keep me from blowing the tires off after the first 60' from 60 to 100 feet. After I figured that out and got the weight to stay transfered my ET started heading in the right direction quick.

Another factor is this: I tell my wife this, so she stays enthusiastic about going to the track multiple times...The guys going to the track more often and testing more often will eventually be the fastest guys. Bottom line those that work the hardest at it will be the fastest eventually. Not everyone puts ET on a high priority I get that. If you have a boosted daily making a ton of power and you only show up once a year with street tires on your ET is probably not going to be anywhere near your full potential.

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

For what a lower mileage C5/C6 cost now you can get a Gen 6 Camaro. The A8/A10 and rear end will hold 800whp all day. I know several making 1000. The LT1 will make 600whp NA relatively easy on E85 with a mild H/C setup. They will handle boost ok if you run them on Ethanol...700-750whp before needing rods/pistons.

I agree the LT8 block is stout. The block and crank is good for 1500hp unmodified. There are some modified offerings that support 2k.

Gen 6 Camaro in the low 30k range (LT1 trim with A10), Magnuson 2300 supercharger(10 psi), THP Port Injection setup, JMS booster for the low side, Full Drag Pack. This setup will run 9.80's at 141-142mph. This is with bone stock exhaust down to the cats. You would have around 42-42k into this setup all in with the price of the car. 700whp, 9 second capable, drives like stock.

Coyote still has the edge if you want to push further as that engine will handle another 50-100whp before you need to install oil pump gears vs putting rods/pistons in the LT1. It's honestly not much more work. The Coyote is PITA to work on. LT is easier but not as easy as LS. The big thing about LS is that it makes good power, parts are cheaper, and average shade tree mechanic can work on them.

01CamaroSSTx

iTrader: (3)

Dosen't matter because all of these 3,000 hp engines are racing engines running on methanol.

01CamaroSSTx

iTrader: (3)

How about an LSR tall deck making 900+ NA on pump gas? My son is currently looking for a C3 Stingray and his ultimate dream build is 500 cubes of LS greatness bolted to a 6 speed. Hope I'm around long enough to see him reach that goal.

Che70velle

iTrader: (6)

Interesting topic and conversation guys…it’s refreshing to see tech talked about here on TECH. Regarding the Coyote vs GM topic…the Gen6 GM engine is coming. Coyote guys gonna be crying like the cryote guys they are.

BCNUL8R

iTrader: (2)

The bolded red part is why I use an LS. For one I'm a GM guy always have been, yes I know GTO is a holden...lol. I'm also on a budget and not the most skilled mechanic although I work to improve constantly. This is why I have a great deal of respect for the guys making 700+ rwhp NA with an LS. I love those combos and I do know enough that all those little things beyond just installing parts correctly can make the difference between 650 rwhp and 700 rwhp. I find it interesting some of the things that are done that may be 5 hp here or 5 hp there.

Those big cubic inch high horsepower NA combos also cost big money especially once you start paying someone to do custom work. I mean starting with $4000 heads and then paying the cost level to get the most talented people to do their work on them as well as just one example.

I found that I could do a boosted combo and make more power cheaper using stock parts like heads, intake, throttle body, lifters, rockers, crank, etc. and still make 1000 rwhp through an auto trans at my skill level.

If I was to do a big inch max effort NA build while still keeping it streetable (I have a high tolerance for stalls and big cams with me tuning) I would have to pay someone else to build that entire long block for me if I was to achieve 750+ rwhp. With a boosted combo like I currently have I can do all the work just put it together and tune it myself and make the power easily. So, parts alone the boosted combo can be done cheaper then considering with one combo I can do the work and with the other I would need to pay someone more skilled to do the work then the cost difference gets pretty significant.

Assuming the 750+ rwhp NA combo is setup to make a serious drag effort while still being streetable and the 1000 rwhp boosted combo is a street/strip car that is just a casual participant once/twice a year absolutely I can see the NA car winning that drag race.

GMRL

Im curious what thats gonna be. I hear it will debut with the C9 as a MY 29.
If I had to guess, it will be a cross plane version of the motor in the current Z06.
That motor has the same bore spacing as all the past small blocks. Not sure about thr deck height. I can see a 6.X displacement dohc motor.
The limited bore spacing and the deck height is one flaw of the Coyote motor

grinder11

iTrader: (1)

We built some test stands for the Gen 1 Coyote's. One thing I remember about them was that they are HUGE side to side, measured across the heads. Other than late model Mustangs, most cars take a lot of modding to get 'em shoehorned in. But they make some tremendous power. They should, with a 4 valve, DOHC setup. I had one roar by the wife and I, (when we left the twisty turns, lol) top down with the dog on her lap. I said what the hey, I'm gonna catch him. Yeah, I started gaining on him, but not as fast as I thought I would, and I was going 90mph before I did start gaining. Yes, my car was faster, and his car didn't sound stock. But a cammed 427 SHOULD be gaining on a 302. But I was pretty impressed, I gotta say....