Mine is hydraulic. Of course you wouldn't spin an engine to 8500 if it's equipped with a fast 90/92/102, as the design doesn't allow the power to peak higher than 7k. Most of them peak around 6200-6600 depending. The power curve is only going to hold on for so long after that. When I had to the 102 on my car, I only shifted it around 7500, switched to the hi ram and shifted it at 7800 because the peak rose with the hi ram to 6900.

You shift the car based on where the rpms fall in the next gear. You need to pay attention to where peak torque is and that area is where you want the next gear to land in. For me, peak torque is around 5700. So when I shift the car at 8600, I drop back to around 5500. If I were to shift at peak hp (anywhere in that 7200-7900 range) then I would fall back well below peak torque and then I would be causing the motor to struggle back up to peak torque which isn't good for the bottom end.

 

I see, well my peak torque is @ 5100 but what I don't know is what RPM I should be shifting at to keep it near the peak torque curve. I think Pat set the rev limter to 7,200 but I've yet to try and spin it that high and I don't believe anything good would come from it either.

 

I've not had an ls1 that spun to 8500 rpm and apologize if I made it sound like I was using my engine in the example scenario I was using to make a point. I was simply giving one example of how a 346" combo could run a faster ET than a 427" combo. I think you know what point I was making and it was just an example but are looking for ways for me to be wrong now.

My 408 back in 2005 that I mentioned had power falling off just before 6500 rpm if I remember correctly (it was 20 years ago after all) but I also believe I still spun it to about 7000 rpm for the shift extension into the next gear and the ET was better that way. Something a dyno wouldn't really show you until you experimented at the track. I never felt like I was beating on it NA because it was my daily driver and I was driving it 2 hours each way to run 1/4 mile. I raced that car from the day I bought it in 2004 until the end of 2008 3 times a month every month during race season. I went to 3 different tracks kicking nearly everyone's *** back then once I put the nitrous on it. Remember this was 20 years ago running 10.1 with a true daily. Not the fastest daily ever back then by any means, but it was very rare to run into a daily that could beat me 20 years ago. I'm sure with what I know now and with what is available now I would have gone much faster with a 408. My wife and I have a saying at the track...those that test the most go the fastest.

You still keep talking about what you think you can do but haven't done. Yes, I think my current combo can go 8's but I never mention it because I haven't done it. I'm also sure with better heads/intakes, and cams available today I could build a 408 to possibly go high 9's NA in a streetable car.

I do spin my current combo to 7500 rpm at the track. I set the shift point at 7000 to 7100 for street driving. Just ls7 lifters, ws6store rockers, btr equalizer intake with an adapter to run a stock ls1 throttle body with a little help from a maxed out f1a-94 procharger. I can say for a fact every time I raise the shift point in 1st and 2nd gear I gain ET. I only stopped at 7500 not to beat on it and it does have ls7 lifters. I want to be able to drive the car home. If I had johnson lifters in it I'd probably spin the little 377 to 8000 and due to the nature of the procharger and intake I have I'd probably pick up more ET. Again coulda woulda shudda. I ran 5.9 in the 1/8th driving to and from the track on dot tires which is good for low 9's since I have a 3.46 gear and 28" tires I should be able to trap near 150 without running out of gear. I'm over 115 in the 1/8th now last time out in the fall but actually was having troubles in the 60' so I didn't beat my pb of 5.9.

I do all my own work and tuning. You would be surprised how much doing your own tuning at the track can gain especially since I'm running the procharged car in open loop. I can dial in the afr for the weather and adjust shift points or anything else between rounds and see immediate results on next pass. I can also read plugs after a pass and adjust timing which makes massive differences with boost.

 

I clearly used the 346 example to show one potential way a 346 could beat a 427 in a drag race because you all stated the times the other guy posted he ran with his 346 couldn't be done because you or someone you know couldn't even run those times with their 427. No one is claiming a 346 is better than a 427 only that the 346 can indeed run the claimed times if the driver is good, the car is setup for the track, and there is attention to all the details. No one is talking about torque down low we are talking about the claimed ET being ran. I gave a couple examples about how this could be done after you all said it couldn't be done.

Now you want to move the goal posts to some other subject because you don't want to admit you are wrong about the claimed ET being possible. Literally no one thinks a 346 is better than a 427 all else equal but literally nothing is equal as proved by the guy running faster times with his 346 than you guys with your 427's. His results literally prove this and nothing else you say will prove otherwise. Give the guy running faster than you with his 346 a 427 and yes he would likely be even faster, but either way he still ran faster than you even with his inferior 346 LOL.

 

Not moving the goal post and you've explained it well. All out race LS1 with bolt ons makes equal power to a 427 builds with bolt ons. Go all out race on a 427 and the LS1 doesn't compare. NA motors I'm speaking of here and for the record there's way better heads out there than LME's CNC Brodix BR7's. I could've had LME open them up even more but they're pretty much a stock configuration of an LS7 head 265cc 71cc heads.

 

It don't really work like that in this scenario.


Well.......what is full weight? A drag pak reduces weight. If you do it right likely aftermarket exhaust reduces weight......many mods reduce weight. So only stupid people actually have a full weight car......or maybe they fail at math.

Is a full tank of gas full weight or 1/2 1/3 or 1/4 or even less??

All this full weight stuff is mostly crap for someone that can't figure it out.

I prefer to think of it in another way. How complete is the car. Ripping all the interior out and claiming weight reduction is talentless. And probably worse than calling someone stupid.......but hey if the shoe fits i guess lol. If it's a race car it's fine. If it's a street car not so much. I don't wanna ride in a gutted pos to far.

So most likely no one is actually full weight.


Sounds like a awesome combo!

Lol........i likely said if you only making 420-440 whp with a h/c 5.7 you did it wrong. If that hurts anyone......that's on them. If one is to closed minded to accept and realize that after proof has been put in their face.......well then they deserve to be called stupid and I won't apologize for that. This forum is full of info. Some from me and I have learned from others. If you fail to digest that info that's completely on you. I think it's sad people get stuck in their ways like many do on here and just end up with a **** combo......then think it's all that engine platform can do.

Yup......i went from 118 traps to 130~ traps with the same basic engine a bolt on ls6. There's more to making a car accelerate than peak hp.



Sounds like a nasty combo. My 5.7 makes peak at 7100-7200 and holds pretty flat till about 7800 when we stopped the pull. It would probably want a different intake to turn it much more rpm.



It feels like it just never stops pulling. I wouldn't mind getting it back on the dyno at some point to test some stuff.

Most don't ever figure out actual shift points......they just shift at peak hp. And here's a secret that you kinda touched on lightly there......not every gear has the same rpm drop. Which means you likely shouldn't shift at the same rpm in every gear.

 

If I was going to get serious with NA power I'd want the CID intake and cylinder heads, Holley Dominator carburetor, a MSD front mount distributor and a fuel system to support M1 but my thinking is it will be much cheaper to purchase an F1A-94 to make the power on pump gas and keep it as a street car, and it won't matter if the car ever sees a 10 second pass, you'll just know that it's without a doubt capable..

 

If it's capable of doing it then it will.....if it's not then it won't #hiologic

😁

 

Well if it never sees a race track then it won't. 😬

 

Well right now I'm in the same boat.......but at some point I will run it. It needs some gearing changes before I do. And that takes money and time. And time is the worst of it at the moment.

 

Would a 15# flywheel produce a higher dyno number than a 24# flywheel? Would the 15# be difficult to drive on the street?

 

Lighter rotating mass will show up on the dyno. When my car hit the dyno it had a heavy steel flywheel, a steel driveshaft and heavy OE Wheels 18" C5 ZO6 wheels with BFG KDW's. Had I went to a lighter flywheel, an aluminum driveshaft and 17" billet aluminum wheels with drag radials it would've made more power but how much is hard to say. IDK about the longevity of using a lighter flywheel for the street. That's something I'm curios to know myself.

 

Looks like Texas Drivetrain Performance has a lighter billet flywheel as opposed to aluminum and it's not overly expensive.

 

That's the one I have on my motor. A lighter flywheel and clutch assembly should not be overlooked on a build.

 

Ive got one on the shelf that I’d love to get rid of….it has a newly rebuilt balanced stage 3 clutch with it.

 

Good point. Most folks take their car to a tuner who tunes for wot in what ever gear is 1 to 1 or close to that. They might do a little street tuning for driveability as well.

Tuning at the track is where you really start unlocking the full ET potential of the combo. Suspension settings whether it be 4 link, ladder bar, torque arm or otherwise, shock settings, tire pressure, shift points, launch rpm, timing, afr on that given day, etc are all part of tuning. If you aren't a tuner or have a tuner at the track with you then you are missing out on a lot of ET potential.

I had my current car tuned on the street for afr and shift points pretty darn well or so I thought. My first day out if I remember correctly my first pass was 6.7 in the 1/8th. I raised the shift points 100 rpm on the 1-2 and 150 on the 2-3 along with leaning it out a bit since it was rich and went 6.4 on the next pass. I then raised the shift points another 100 rpm and 150 rpm with another minor afr adjustment and went 6.2. I then raised the shift points another 100 and 150 and added half a degree of timing and went 6.1. From there I raised timing another 1/2 degree and worked on my launch rpm and eventually got down to 5.9. Now this is with an auto trans where the driver is less impactful on the ET but it shows how very minor shift point changes, afr, and timing alone can make huge differences at the track.

I don't even have the right gear in it for 1/8th mile racing as I'm in 3rd gear at low rpm at the traps but since I drive on the freeway at 75 mph on the way to the track and enjoy cruising on the highway at other times at low rpm I don't want to change the gear. Just one of the compromises we make when drag racing a daily capable car. I also may want to make that 2 hour trip each way to the 1/4 at some point when I think I'm ready to shoot for 8's. I went from 26" tires to 28" tires and didn't pick up any ET because I'm at a lower rpm at the traps but it made the car more consistent as it was easy to get to much wheel speed at nearly 1000 rwhp on the 26's where the 28's hook better.

A dyno and street tune may never show you what 300 to 500 rpm difference in shift points will do for you or what the best shift rpm is in lower gears to maximize ET.

Maybe think about these things before you call BS on someone elses times just because your times with a superior engine combo is slower than their inferior engine combo.

 

Yea.....most want to swing for the fences with the next ultimate cam vs making small changes to figure it out.
On that particular combo of flywheel only weight change I'm going to say little to none in that situation on power or drivability. Although drivability would only get better.....because it will likely get slightly more responsive.

I've seen mamo claim 15 hp on his lightened rps set up. I don't even believe that because on that particular set up even if the mass is lightened the diameter of it all is still the same......thus not much reduction in moi just like in your scenario.

I've had a few different set ups in my car.

Stock of course which is absurdly heavy and probably everyone on here has driven. Pretty poopy imo. No reason for a v8 in a sporty car to have a 52lb clutch/flywheel setup.

Then people put a ls7 clutch/fly (58# if I remember right) set up in them that weighs even more.......bad move. There is a straw that broke the camels back and heavier is not better for performance.

The lt1 clutch is about 62# or 66#. I've seen a couple different weights on them.

Lsa cars have even heavier clutch setups.....about 80#. See a trend here? As tq increases gm increases clutch/fly weight.

It's not done for drivability.......it's done to control tq. It's mechanical tq management.

How do we know this?? Because a 1.6l Honda drives fine with a 28-30lb clutch. A Mustang seems to drive fine with a clutch/fly set up that comes in at 40lb stock. So all this worrying about drivability with a clutch fis pretty much nonsense........until you get to a certain point.

Now since most all has driven most of these set ups let's make a change. I had a aluminum flywheel and lightened spec back in the day. I think is was like 32 or 34#. Other than a little clutch chatter from it being a puck style clutch there was little to no difference in drivability. Does that mean you may not have to change your style from what you're used to in that particular car......no. it will be slightly different but only better imo. The response is much better.

Now to my current set up.....the whole mess weighs about 17lb on a 5.5" tilton button clutch. There are some adjustments that need made to made to make drivability decent here.....but it's not because of the weight. It's more of a how quickly it engages with the nonsprung hub and sintered iron discs. Here's how it drives with a fp t56



Now the dyno......idk to be honest. I had the bolt on ls6 on the dyno pretty often and never really noticed a particular power increase from the clutch. Nothing drastic anyway. But that could be because of the dyno sample rates, weight of the wheel and different configurations of the car. I have seen some evidence that it will increase or rather release power from other people's vids. Steady state loaded there will be no difference at all.

Now that doesn't mean there isn't a acceleration difference. In the first 3 gears especially. By the time you get to 4th probably not so much.

Almost everything thing I have mentioned is readily available.....so do your own research. Lots of this is have posted on this very site.

 

One thing about forums, at least in my opinion. That would be they were created to allow like minded people an opportunity to HELP each other, NOT condemn, or insult them, and telling HioSSilver he was fulla **** certainly isnt right, and isn't helping anyone. So I apologized. If it makes me a bigger person for it, so be it. I wasn't apologizing trying to get accolades. I feel it was the right thing to do. But thank you very much for your compliments, and compliments are something that are also sorely lacking here. As for helping each other, I don't understand the secrecy. It's a forum. I thought that's what we're here for. To help each other. If you're Scott, and built a SBC with over 800hp, and that was back back when, I think, he was still in NASCAR, you're not going to be expected to disclose secrets at that level. Or if you're Garlits or whoever in Top Fuel, you're not going to hear every secret. Or Mamo, or AHP. Unless you're going for world records, class records, etc., I just don't see this need for secrecy. I'll tell anyone what I've done, if they ask me. Sebastian19X has the current world record for quickest/fastest C6Z06, with a 8.73@160 1/4 mile, with a 1.24 60 foot. And no, he ain't spillin' the beans, either. I dont blame him, either. I don't know what more I can say. I told BCNUL8R he and I agree, so why the back and forth??? I agree a 346 can make more power than a 427. But put top builders on each, and the 427 wins hands down. Every time. Seb19X runs a 427+ cube motor, btw. Only thing BCNUL8R and I don't agree on is a stock internals LS6 C5 Z06 running 10 flat. IMHO, as soon as you've removed the valve covers, and started changing valve springs/valve train stuff, it's no longer stock internals. If you've changed the cam to an aftermarket, or even a different stock GM cam, if it didn't come from GM in the LS6, then the cam you're running makes it a non-stock internals LS6. I don't see why this is so difficult for some to comprehend.

 

Id also love to see some of these "10 flat" C5Z06s drive from Michigan to Florida. Spend 6 .months in the Florida heat and 2 minute red lights, then drive back to Michigan......

 

My peak torque is also 5,000-5,100rpm. So even though max hp occurs around 6,300rpm, I had the tuner set the shift points at 7,000rpm. In my A4 C5, 1st to 2nd is quite a drop. Worked out perfect. 5,100rpm when 2nd hits. As EBC5 said, that's where peak torque is (for me).