SSCoulter

iTrader: (4)

That's a good example. However, the goal for me anyway is not a race car but the most "fun" street car I can build. Or rather, the best cam for that. Your right of course about hp, however torque plays a huge roll in how quick you are. You can "feel" torque, you need a guage to tell that you have more hp. I bet I "use" this cam more than a big one on a daily basis.

Edit: BTW, the brick wall in this case WILL move and the more torque I have the quicker it will move.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

I understand that you want something you can feel and appreciate on a daily basis, and be fun to drive. But I think you are mistaken on what will give you that. As I think someone else sugested, you should drive a quote "big cam" car and see how you like it. I have a feeling you will really like it and won't need any gauges to tell you the fun meter is pegged (or any time to even look at any gauges, for that mater.) This is why a lot of people go to an even bigger cam once they've had a taste of a meduim sized one. Also the reason many people forget about the tach and just get a shift light!

Cal

iTrader: (1)

To use your example, yes enough torque does guarantee you will move, but it does not say how fast you will move. Visualize a diesel train locomotive moving at 5 mph; can you stop it from moving? No. But is it moving fast? Hell no! Ok, that's an extreme example, but you get the point.

Another example:
1st gear in your car gives you a lot of torque multiplication, but how fast have you ever went in first gear? 5th gear offers far less torque multiplication than 1st, but how fast have you went in that gear. With my 4.11s, I don't think I've went 50 mph in 1st, and had enough torque to spin the tires until I hit the rev limiter. But I have a time slip from the Bonneville Salt Flats for 161 mph in 5th gear.

SSCoulter

iTrader: (4)

I appreciate you posting your thoughts. It was the goal when I started this thread to find the best cam for me and what I wanted. You may be right about the "big cam" cars, unfortunately I can't drive one so I have no way of knowing what that feels like. I don't want to make a mistake and waste time and money on a cam that I am not happy with so again, that was the point of this thread. You have to admit that this thought has some merit since this thread has now had over 140 replies and been viewed over 4,000 times. When I talked to Vinci, they whole heartedly agreed with me on what I was looking for. They have bigger cams than the one I picked but with most big cams I have looked at they make power way up the rpm ladder compared to smaller cams. I can't envision a scenario where I would be happy losing any torque down low. BTW, all races are not 1320 feet long. If that's your thing, great more power to you.

Once again, I'm not building a race car nor do I care if your car makes 40 more hp on the dyno. I want torque, plain and simple. Years ago I owned a bored out 454 in a 69 Nova that ran 11.30's without the nitrous. I loved racing that car at the track, but the best part about owning that car was seeing the force of my passenger's head being bounced off the head rest. Ahh, big block torque. I miss you so much.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

It might surprise you, but my thing is actually autoX. I'm not even a drag racer, I've only been on a drag race track once, on a dyno once, and I've only done land speed racing once. But I autoX once or twice a month for the whole season. I've been around a long time too and had two very fast '67 Firebirds with big blocks. What I should be telling you is you don't lose torque with a big cam in an LS1 like you did in the old days with flat tappet cams.

Edit:
I just looked at your profile, I'm 8 years older that you are!

blkZ28spt

Great thing is that nowadays you can run those 11.30's in a NA, cam only LS1.

SSCoulter

iTrader: (4)

I know, it makes me so very proud. Don't get me wrong, I am much impressed with how much power you guys are making with the LS1. I love to hear about the huge dyno numbers and see the low ET's. But I don't drive your car everyday, I drive mine. I just think there should be two different schools of thought when it comes to moding a LS1. I bet there are lot's of LS1 owners that want exactly what I do. Nice sounding lope, hp increase and gobs and gobs of useable torque on the way to the grocery store! lol.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Right. But what I'm telling you is you can have that great lope and 100 extra hp without giving up any noticeable amount of useable torque. BTW, a 216 cam on today's fast ramps won't have a noticeable lope unless you slow the idle down to about 500 rpm.

SSCoulter

iTrader: (4)

Ok thanks. I have not ordered it just yet so there is still hope for me. Does anyone with a BIG cam live within a hundred miles of Little Rock, Arkansas? Can I please drive your car and see how I like a big cam? I will drive to you, I will fill up your tank and I will buy you a burger and a beer, or several. (beers).

Anyone?

PREDATOR-Z

Cal,
Your whole explanation of trq is wrong. Big cams make more trq but in a higher rpm band. to get there you need more flow through the motor and more exhaust scavenging. Your trq peak is higher than small trq cams. Read around, M6 people need at least 3.73's or 4.11's to reach that trq peak quicker and benefit from it. In an A4 you need big stall.

A cam has a "pupose range", you should know that in autox.
For the street, the rpm range that is used on a daily basis is much lower than 5500+. Therefore a smaller cam will fair better.

No everyone is running ***** out on a regular basis. Aussies have shown us regularly that high trq cams serve their purpose well for their intended applications.

Trq is for acceleration and the farther your carry into the power band that the quicker you are.

There is no such thing as an all pupose maximum effort cam. To harness huge trq on a big duration cam, you need to reduce the LSA. Why? To bring your power range down. Why? to bring your trq peak down. Why? To accelerate faster.

Your cam with proper combination should be over 480+ rwhp, where it belongs. You're only using a fraction of your cam potential.

One should choose a cam to satisfy what the car is driven for 80% of the time, and there is always a sacrifice to be made, whether it is drivability, fuel consumption etc...

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Predator, much of what you are saying is true. However, note that he already has 4.10 gears. And the issues you point out are addressed by off the shelf cams with LSA and advance, and the rest are easily handled with other mods to the car. The negatives associated with large cams in an LS1 are not anything like he remebers from the old days. I had many of the same fears as he did before I put in my last cam, but I figured I could always pull it and put a smaller one in, since cam swaps are so easy on these cars. No way would I want to pull it now! And I don't think you will find many people on this forum that have ever decided to down grade a cam swap. Maybe he doesn't need a cam the size of mine, but I think at least a 224 on 112 LSA.

As for my cam, it may have peak torque at 4800 rpm, but it puts out 300 ft-lbs or more everywhere from 1750 rpm to 7000 rpm. I really don't have a problem enjoying this as my daily driver, and a useable rpm range this wide really helps out on the autoX courses we have in this area.

SsZERO

I put my order in for a FM13 on a 112 LSA. Not a huge cam, but should be fun. I'm just getting the off-the-shelf unit, which I believe is a 112+4. Also plan to get a set of 5.3L PRC heads from TSP...not sure whether to get the 1.5 or 2.5 stage, but the heads should help with the TQ down low, and obviously produce better peak figures.

66deuce

iTrader: (1)

when i put my TR220 in,i ran the stock converter for a week until my 3000 stall was installed. it was definately slower out of the hole than with the stock cam.now from about 2500rpms and up the TR220 kicks butt over the stock one. i think most people would be suprised at how much time the motor spends at 2500 or less during normal driving.some people want to have a more mild mannered car if they do most of their driving under 3000rpms like in city traffic.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I often poke along through town at 1200 rpm. Not optimum for my cam, but it does it just fine. And for normal driving, these motors are overkill at any rpm. If I want to accelerate hard, I shift down. You don't do any serious acceleration or racing below 3000 rpm with any cam in a 5.7 L motor IMO. You have to down shift.

Edit:
As for "out of the hole" performance, you have a lot more control over that with a M6. When I put this cam in, I admit I had to adjust they way I launch, but it wasn't a big deal. Then I installed a Spec clutch with aluminum flywheel, and had to adjust my launching technique again, and again it wasn't a big deal. I can launch as hard as I want.

PREDATOR-Z

Here I agree with you completely.

SSCoulter

iTrader: (4)

Now you have a good point there. With 4.10 gears I have all the gear I want if I down shift. Even with the stock cam on the highway I'm going to third to race someone. That spins the rpm's up there quick. Ok, good point thanks.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Right. Here's another point you may not have thought about with your 346 inch motor: With any cam you put in there, the low rpm torque will only vary a relatively small amount; maybe plus or minus 5%. But with what you can gain on the top end and even midrange, a "bigger" cam is well worth it. Honestly, I think about 230 degrees (@ 50 thou) duration is a real sweet spot with any 5.7 L engine. That was even true on the old SBC. Sure you can get even more power by going bigger, but about 230 degrees is where the motor comes alive. I think Futral has a number of popular cams that are about that.

PREDATOR-Z

Read this graph, you'll see what I try to explain all the time.



Look at the power under the curve, who wins??

TR224 is green

blkZ28spt

Graph is a little small there.

PREDATOR-Z

fixed it

Before you guys say anything about the AFR the owner said they were tuned for each cam