Just Talked To Dart.....
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Plymouth, MI
Can you tell us if these heads have a thick deck for FI/NOS use, and if so how thick? Will there be any options on chamber size (eg: 72cc)?
i thought the beehive springs were only good for .600" lift, so if these heads are good to .625" lift could i just bolt them on with a t-rex cam?
I thought Peterson made the springs for Comp. And PSI did the beehive springs for Isky?
Who is getting the initial 40 sets of heads?
Will these accept standard LS1 sized springs and valves? Or are they using less expensive and heavier SBC stuff? Im mostly interested in knowing if I can use a dual spring kit on these heads since I perfer the safety of duals. Id also just like to be sure that the heads are not using heavier SBC valves.
Originally Posted by Moxie
They will accept traditional dual springs if you prefer. We're using traditional 11/32" stem severe duty valves, not metric valves. They're more readily available, and thoroughly proven. As for valvetrain weight, it's not an issue at the rpm range most street/strip cars will see. For those people wanting a different valvetrain setup, sticking with SBC style components means there are far more parts available to choose from.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,341
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Moxie
Hi everyone, I'm Greg. Since there are lots of rumors and questions, and our email box is getting hammered 
, I thought I should register and try to answer a few questions. I'm the outside sales & marketing guy over at Dart. I'll try to answer questions here when I can, or feel free to email us at darttech@dartheads.com.
For starters, you can go to www.dartheads.com, look in the New Products section, and check our our LS1 flyer in .pdf format. That at least lets you look at pictures and read a few basic specs.
Flow numbers from the prototype are graphed on the flyer. We'll flow one of the first production pieces when machining is finished. They should be close to the prototype numbers.
Suggested retail price is $465.63/each for bare heads. These are PRO1 cast aluminum heads, not CNC ported. They do have valve jobs done. We may do a CNC version in a year or so. In the meantime, if you are looking to have a cylinder head shop port your Dart LS1 heads, I would recommend buying the 205cc castings. There is more material in the ports and will allow the head porter more room to work
Suggested retail price for the assembled heads $651.88/each. These heads are ready to run out of the box.
cary et performance said:
Good news, Cary. Assembled heads will have stainless steel severe duty valves, beehive springs good to .625" lift, and titanium retainers. The valves come from Eaton, who supplies Manley. The springs come from PSI, who supplies Comp Cams. The retainers are being made by Trick Titanium. They will also have bronze valve guides and teflon stem seals. I don't know about locators yet, but shims at least.
Some people have commented about the percieved low price. If you look at our PRO1 heads for a traditional SBC, these come in at the same price. It doesn't cost us any more to cast and machine the LS1 head than a classic SBC head, so there is no reason to inflate the pricing. As for the shops that offer CNC programs (like E.T. Performance), I expect they will offer CNC programs on our castings.
Lots of people have asked when they can get the heads. The first batch of 40 heads is being finished right now. These are already sold. The next batch of 300 heads will be ready in mid to late October. We're waiting on the foundry for castings. About half of these are already sold. Following that, we should have them readily available on an ongoing basis, depending on how fast orders come in. Orders are being taken through retailers now, and will be filled on a first come, first serve basis.
We have never tried to seek CARB #'s for our cylinder heads. To the best of my knowledge, the boss has no intention of doing this in the future.
, I thought I should register and try to answer a few questions. I'm the outside sales & marketing guy over at Dart. I'll try to answer questions here when I can, or feel free to email us at darttech@dartheads.com.For starters, you can go to www.dartheads.com, look in the New Products section, and check our our LS1 flyer in .pdf format. That at least lets you look at pictures and read a few basic specs.
Flow numbers from the prototype are graphed on the flyer. We'll flow one of the first production pieces when machining is finished. They should be close to the prototype numbers.
Suggested retail price is $465.63/each for bare heads. These are PRO1 cast aluminum heads, not CNC ported. They do have valve jobs done. We may do a CNC version in a year or so. In the meantime, if you are looking to have a cylinder head shop port your Dart LS1 heads, I would recommend buying the 205cc castings. There is more material in the ports and will allow the head porter more room to work
Suggested retail price for the assembled heads $651.88/each. These heads are ready to run out of the box.
cary et performance said:
Good news, Cary. Assembled heads will have stainless steel severe duty valves, beehive springs good to .625" lift, and titanium retainers. The valves come from Eaton, who supplies Manley. The springs come from PSI, who supplies Comp Cams. The retainers are being made by Trick Titanium. They will also have bronze valve guides and teflon stem seals. I don't know about locators yet, but shims at least.
Some people have commented about the percieved low price. If you look at our PRO1 heads for a traditional SBC, these come in at the same price. It doesn't cost us any more to cast and machine the LS1 head than a classic SBC head, so there is no reason to inflate the pricing. As for the shops that offer CNC programs (like E.T. Performance), I expect they will offer CNC programs on our castings.
Lots of people have asked when they can get the heads. The first batch of 40 heads is being finished right now. These are already sold. The next batch of 300 heads will be ready in mid to late October. We're waiting on the foundry for castings. About half of these are already sold. Following that, we should have them readily available on an ongoing basis, depending on how fast orders come in. Orders are being taken through retailers now, and will be filled on a first come, first serve basis.
We have never tried to seek CARB #'s for our cylinder heads. To the best of my knowledge, the boss has no intention of doing this in the future.
It's nice to FINALLY see prices inline with the SBC stuff.
You are going to sell a TON of these.
I am guessing you are using 918 springs?
Originally Posted by CHRISPY
Thanks for registering! this is GREAT news for our community.
It's nice to FINALLY see prices inline with the SBC stuff.
You are going to sell a TON of these.
I am guessing you are using 918 springs?
It's nice to FINALLY see prices inline with the SBC stuff.
You are going to sell a TON of these.
I am guessing you are using 918 springs?
http://www.iskycams.com/productdispl...=101&dealer=no
dart heads i have a question moxie, i have a 98 transam and was wondering if my valve covers will bolt to these heads, i know there is a difference in the years and was wondering if these heads were for both perimeter and center bolt valve covers?
Originally Posted by CHRISPY
I am guessing you are using 918 springs?
Originally Posted by Moxie
The weight difference is negligible.
Bret
Originally Posted by CamaroSS
See now this is Bullshit! I spend all this moeny on 921s and now I can't use them on these heads I was waiting for.....thanks Dart, I appreciate it.
Originally Posted by CamaroSS
See now this is Bullshit! I spend all this moeny on 921s and now I can't use them on these heads I was waiting for.....thanks Dart, I appreciate it.
there is a forsale section
Birdonnos... I do believe they are all centerbolt style.
Moxie....
What affect does using SBC parts have on the rest of the valve train? Pushrod length? Does that change if using a stock lifters, or one of the aftermarket OEM clones?
What about Rocker Arms? What is needed? LS1 specific Rocker Arms, or SBC type rocker arms?
You say the weight difference between LS1 and SBC valves is negligible.... but what is the difference?
Thanks in advanced!
Moxie....
What affect does using SBC parts have on the rest of the valve train? Pushrod length? Does that change if using a stock lifters, or one of the aftermarket OEM clones?
What about Rocker Arms? What is needed? LS1 specific Rocker Arms, or SBC type rocker arms?
You say the weight difference between LS1 and SBC valves is negligible.... but what is the difference?
Thanks in advanced!
Ha, OK.....give you a break? These have been in the car for about a week? Paid upwards of $700 completed, and now I have to sell them as used even though they have nothing on them?
It doesn't matter anymore though, I am getting some 6.0L ported by a great guy......not mad any more.......
It doesn't matter anymore though, I am getting some 6.0L ported by a great guy......not mad any more.......
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Suburbs of Detroit
LS 1 Dart heads There still seems to be alot of questions regarding these heads and some confusion so I will attempt to clear that up! These heads are made to be direct replacements, and with the exception of the valve stem diameter that is the case. We chose the larger stem for a variety of reasons, strength, cost, availability of parts, ease of transition of new products. The 11/32 stem is 8.731mm not much larger than the 8mm stem used, and the 11/32 stem allows us to use the same valves, locks, seals, and guides that we have already made. It however made it so that we had to have Trick Titanium custom make the retainers for the beehive springs and the 11/32 stems. The weight difference on the intake valve is about 1-2 grams and the exhaust is 1 gram, negligable in a pro stock engine probably, in a severe street strip car it wont even matter. We have tested the springs and valves with the spin tron test equipment and the slighter larger and "heavier" valve makes zero difference. The heads will be able to use your stock rockers, stock pushrods, and anything else you may already have. We are using top shelf parts on our assemblies, like the back cut vavles we design and have built by Eaton who furbishes almost everyones valves, PSI springs who makes all the high end springs out there, Trick Titanium retainers who makes all the NHRA Top Fulers bellhousings, and bronzze guides we make in house. These parts we feel are second to none.
In regards to flow testing and engine testing we already know how these will work, and have spent many of a man hour porting the original samples to develop the best out of the box performing head available. Most everyone gets their kicks looking at flow numbers, however we spend most of our time testing in teh real world using our state of the art wet flow bench custom built my Superflow and Joe Mondello, this tool allows us to design a ports and chambers and then test them nto jsut with air but liquid with the same density as fuel. The advantage to this testing versus dry flow testing is pretty simple it allows us to see what happens in the port in the real world and we test at 55" not 28". This has allowed us to make a port that might not necessarily flow as well as others but will typically make more power. Most companies dont have this measure of equipment and can only test the old way. Some people who have seen the benefits of this equipment would be Reher Morrison specifically Darren Morgan who is their chief head guy there, and he couldnt believe the information and its accuracy. Darren frequents places like speedtalk.com and talks highly of this equipment. We use it for head developement everyday both for our customers and our Pro Stock engine program.
An example of a situation would be a Ford engine (no stone throwing please) we used a set of our as cast 195 heads versus AFR ported 205 heads and a set of Victor Jr heads that were as Edelbrock sells them. Roush took their crate engine with the AFR heads and dyno'd the engine then Edelbrock and tehn ours. We made 1.5 more horsepower than the AFR and 12 more than the other. Not too bad being ours flowed less on a dry flow bench but yet we were better on the wet flow bench. Now all of Roush's crate engines use Darts heads.
The reason for the example is to just state dont think about the flow numbers as a huge priority when deciding about what heads to buy, we never care here when we help people on the phones and on the computer, we match the heads to his combination not flow numbers.
Anyways back to the heads if you guys have or need any more information feel free to email us at darttech@dartheads.com Thanks
In regards to flow testing and engine testing we already know how these will work, and have spent many of a man hour porting the original samples to develop the best out of the box performing head available. Most everyone gets their kicks looking at flow numbers, however we spend most of our time testing in teh real world using our state of the art wet flow bench custom built my Superflow and Joe Mondello, this tool allows us to design a ports and chambers and then test them nto jsut with air but liquid with the same density as fuel. The advantage to this testing versus dry flow testing is pretty simple it allows us to see what happens in the port in the real world and we test at 55" not 28". This has allowed us to make a port that might not necessarily flow as well as others but will typically make more power. Most companies dont have this measure of equipment and can only test the old way. Some people who have seen the benefits of this equipment would be Reher Morrison specifically Darren Morgan who is their chief head guy there, and he couldnt believe the information and its accuracy. Darren frequents places like speedtalk.com and talks highly of this equipment. We use it for head developement everyday both for our customers and our Pro Stock engine program.
An example of a situation would be a Ford engine (no stone throwing please) we used a set of our as cast 195 heads versus AFR ported 205 heads and a set of Victor Jr heads that were as Edelbrock sells them. Roush took their crate engine with the AFR heads and dyno'd the engine then Edelbrock and tehn ours. We made 1.5 more horsepower than the AFR and 12 more than the other. Not too bad being ours flowed less on a dry flow bench but yet we were better on the wet flow bench. Now all of Roush's crate engines use Darts heads.
The reason for the example is to just state dont think about the flow numbers as a huge priority when deciding about what heads to buy, we never care here when we help people on the phones and on the computer, we match the heads to his combination not flow numbers.
Anyways back to the heads if you guys have or need any more information feel free to email us at darttech@dartheads.com Thanks
Originally Posted by SporkLover
Birdonnos... I do believe they are all centerbolt style.
Moxie....
What affect does using SBC parts have on the rest of the valve train? Pushrod length? Does that change if using a stock lifters, or one of the aftermarket OEM clones?
What about Rocker Arms? What is needed? LS1 specific Rocker Arms, or SBC type rocker arms?
You say the weight difference between LS1 and SBC valves is negligible.... but what is the difference?
Thanks in advanced!
Moxie....
What affect does using SBC parts have on the rest of the valve train? Pushrod length? Does that change if using a stock lifters, or one of the aftermarket OEM clones?
What about Rocker Arms? What is needed? LS1 specific Rocker Arms, or SBC type rocker arms?
You say the weight difference between LS1 and SBC valves is negligible.... but what is the difference?
Thanks in advanced!
Nothing else changes, we only changed the valve stem diameter from the 8mm to a 11/32 valve which would be 8.731mm not much to make any difference, these are bolt on heads, we are not reinventing the wheel here, it just makes no sense to use 8mm valves there is no advantage to the smaller stem size. Now if one went to a 5.5 or 6mm valve stem like NASCAR then ok there might be an advantage in weight savings and harmonics, but again they use valves that cost well over $100.00 each. Everything else in use in the same as OE. Thanks
So like Moxie has been saying... it seems that any percieved disadvantages between a 8mm and 11/32 Valve is negligible.
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Plymouth, MI
Thanks to my coworker, John, for answering those questions. Sporklover, I believe it was John who also answered your tech email. Thanks for the interest. =)
CamaroSS, if you're referring to Comp 921 springs, here are the specs from Comp's website:
O.D.: 1.300
I.D.: 0.655
Seat Load: 135 @ 1.770
Open Load: 400 @ 1.220
Coil Bind: 1.040
Rate (lbs./in.): 408
Now, here are the specs on our springs:
O.D.: 1.290
I.D.: 0.630
Seat Load: 120 @ 1.800
Open Load: 360 @ 1.175
Coil Bind: 1.100
Rate (lbs./in.): 384
We're using a LS1 type spring, and so are you. Either spring will work, you just have to adjust for the different valve stem diameters. You would need retainers and locks to match our valves. The 921's install at a different height, so you would need to use shims. That should do it.
SStrokerAce, you could special order w/o guides.
CamaroSS, if you're referring to Comp 921 springs, here are the specs from Comp's website:
O.D.: 1.300
I.D.: 0.655
Seat Load: 135 @ 1.770
Open Load: 400 @ 1.220
Coil Bind: 1.040
Rate (lbs./in.): 408
Now, here are the specs on our springs:
O.D.: 1.290
I.D.: 0.630
Seat Load: 120 @ 1.800
Open Load: 360 @ 1.175
Coil Bind: 1.100
Rate (lbs./in.): 384
We're using a LS1 type spring, and so are you. Either spring will work, you just have to adjust for the different valve stem diameters. You would need retainers and locks to match our valves. The 921's install at a different height, so you would need to use shims. That should do it.
SStrokerAce, you could special order w/o guides.