I'd rather work on a late model than deal with messing with adjustments on a carb, backfires, checking the timing, changing the tune for weather, setting valve lash, horrible old style gaskets that are a PITA to get to seal (compare a camshaft swap on a LS1 to a standard SBC), old electrical systems that barely work and don't make any sense, etc..

If you take all the extra stuff (emissions, air conditioning, etc..) these cars are way easier to work on than old cars/motors and run way better with less to worry about when everything is done.

 

Power has always been about money, not cubes. Dont kid yourself.
An SBC will outpower yout LS1 with equal money so your arguement is pretty lame

How fast you go is how much money you have. Even the LS1 cant change that basic fact.

 

tuning a carb vs tuning efi. huh.

adjusting timing on an SBC or adjusting timing on an LS1

You dont need to retune a carb for weather. Not unless you are a hard core racer. Fact of the matter is that 99% of cars with heads or cam are tuned worth crap anyway (efi). People think 4-6 hours on a dyno yeilds a tuned car
well, im sure that 30 years from now, LS1 gaskets will be crappy to. I suggest changing them when rebuilding.

Eelctrical problems on a 69 camaro vs a 99 camaro. hmm.

you guys might want to argue the "value added" aspect more. things like 6spd transmissions, Th400 with OD, crash safety, gas milage, emissions, AC, powertrain cooling etc.

 

i personally think working on my ls1 is much easier than my 82 camaro i was intimidated at first, but being broke kinda forces you to fend for yourself.

 

we have a 1974 firebird, and a 1978 formula, i think those are much harder to work on than our 1998 formula, i think older cars are just more durable, hey accidently cut up something, tape it back together, newer cars if you look at something the wrong way you get a dtc, or the thing wont start, but all in all i'd say its about the same stredd level

 

thats because you had pontiac engines. those thnigs were HUUUUUGE.

 

there was a 350 small block in the '78 and a oldsmobil or buick (cant rember off the top of my head) 350 in the 74, difference of 4 cubic inches from the 1998 ls1

 

i meant physical size. old pontiac engines were tanks.

 

My dad has owned every muscle car under the sun, big and small blocks, GM and Mopar. He said the same thing when I bought my Z until he realized that my car, stock, kept up with his built 396 in his 70 shortbed truck, and now that I have headers/ORY/catback/lid/tune, I can not only outrun him, but get 3-4x the gas mileage he gets, with better driveability, the ability to crank the car whenever I want in whatever weather I want, AND can take a turn faster than 20mph. After I let him drive it, he realized why I bought it and why it's worth it to build it.

I've worked on my fair share of muscle cars and yeah, working on the Z is a little more tedious and a little more expensive, but it sure as hell pays off once you're finished.

You ever notice how all these big block crates are rated at 350hp? 400hp? That's at the MOTOR, and that's what an LS1/LS6 makes AT THE MOTOR...STOCK.

 

350hp big block?

 

Put down the crack pipe. How can you compare a 69 Dodge Dart to an LS1? Are you serious. I'll take my car any day over a 69 Camaro. Yeah its nice but dont have the ***** to compare the two.

 

I don't know about that power comparison. I think that dollar for dollar you could build a much better lsx base engine than a SBC.

$4000 built ls2 shortblock
$2400 AFR 225s/comparable
$2000 intake/tb/other stuff
Say another $600 in other parts to put it together

That would be an engine that would make what, 500-550 at the wheels maybe?

What would the price be to make a similar power SBC, using new parts etc.?

I don't think you can get a 600hp crate longblock for $9000, but maybe you can. I think the ZZ 572 street version is rated at 620, which would be maybe 550 at the wheels and costs like $13,000.

Someone price out a 550 at the wheels small block with forged internals and
let me know how it turns out.

 

I've worked on several of both. Musclecars vs late model cars. Old school engines are pretty simple to assemble when everything is brand new and sitting on the assembly table. Both engine types are about equal in difficulty under those circumstances.

BUT, when it comes time to do maintenance or replace parts such as camshafts, intake manifolds, head gaskets, etc... the late model cars engines are much easier to work on. Our LS1s do not have engine coolant flowing thru the intake manifolds, and we do not have to scrape gaskets since most of them are reusable O-ring types. Old engines leak like hell after some hard miles, most newer engines do not.

If you are just considering engine bay size, then yes old cars are better for working on. I'd say late model engines are easier to work on though. Thats why I put late model engines into old cars. This one was EASY to work on!





I'll bet your Dart doesn't make 600 hp on pump gas, average 24 mpg on the highway, run mid 10s in the 1/4, and be reliable enough to complete the 4500 mile round trip for Power Tour. Those are the benefits of modern engines.

Tony

 

I can sit inside my engine bay and work on the car...

Don't have to pull the intake to change a cam, dont have to jack with the carb on cold mornings, nothing.

Granted I do LOVE older cars, and enjoy working on them, but I like messing with my more.

 

tony who took that shot of the car moving on the PT? almost looks 'chopped..

back to the thread.

 

I think you underestimated cost a bit.
Lets make this fun. Everything from summit racing. I'm sure I could find it cheaper if I looked around. I'm sure I could buy a package much cheaper too.

Broadix 220cc Heads, intake, gaskets, etc- $2000. Complete with dual valvesprings, gaskets, head bolts, rocker studges and all the gadgets and gizmos

Cam: $120
Going to assume Lifters are the same price
Rockers - $260
Block: - uhh yeah. Clean machined 4 bolt main block is like $300
Pistons: Lets go all out, because we're bad ***. $630 for JE ultralight pistons.


Rods: Lunati (because i know they make LS stuff) 4340 forged rod: $420


Crank: again, were ballers. Lunati 4340 forged crankshaft. $775



Lets keep going.
Super baller main caps: $200


Fuel delivery: Carb: $350

Tuning: $0

We'll assume oil pump system and pan are equally priced.
If you want to bitch about gas, Fuel injectors and fuel rail blanks are about $300. Add some tapping of the intake manifold and megasquirt. I dont know what megasquirt goes for but i know its not that expensive. figure $450 total and you can tune yourself easily.

Ignition: not even going to bother, but i promise a cap and rotor are cheaper than 8 coils and sensors

$4755.

Add up light forged Je pistons, Forged Lunati crank and rods, fuel system after the lines, cam, rockers, heads, intake, sensors, throttle body, valve covers, valves, valve springs, rockers, gaskets (top end), rocker studs, all the bolts and hardware and cool main caps. Ohh and a hat biatch!


You can eaaasily make 500hp with that. easily.

 

they dont make 600hp? why do you guys think that good heads dont exist outside the LSx world? The LS1 isn't anything revolutionary. suck, squish, boom blow is still happening. the SAME way it would happen in an SBC.

 

Just for the record, I enjoy the advantages of my modern truck over an old one. But to even concider for a moment that bang for the buck or something like that is in our favor is just silly.

My next project/race car will be carbed. They make a LOT of power for little cash. They suck down fuel, but God do they make power. Not much to go wrong either. But I just like newer cars. They are just nicer overall.

 

LMAO at 'baller' parts
and
rollin at

 

AFR heads come assembled, all you would have to buy is pushrods, which is why I included the catchall 'other stuff'.

I mentioned 550 at the wheels, cause I could slap together a '500hp' lsx engine for a lot cheaper than what I listed up top. I just used standard sponsor prices for the stuff, I'm sure you could build it cheaper too. A good heads/cam stock shortblock could do 440-450 at the wheels, which would satisfy a '500hp' engine requirement.


I was just playing around with prices for a longblock, not including headers/other stuff.