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Best heads
Originally Posted by Rookie
Really? So "any" 12 degree LS-1 head at 215cc will have a smaller mean cross sectional area than a comparable 215cc 15 degree LS-1 head.
Nate
Staging Lane
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: N?W
Originally Posted by Nate_Taufer
LS1 heads are 15 degrees there hot shot. But back on topic. Can you point us to the dyno thread mailhoochie?
Nate
Nate
Sincerely,
Hot Shot
Really? So "any" 12 degree LS-1 head at 215cc will have a smaller mean cross sectional area than a comparable 215cc 15 degree LS-1 head.
That was your statement. So yes any ls1 head (i.e. 933, 806, or 241 casting) will have a larger cross sectional area than a 11 degree head with the same volume runner like i've already stated.
Nate
That was your statement. So yes any ls1 head (i.e. 933, 806, or 241 casting) will have a larger cross sectional area than a 11 degree head with the same volume runner like i've already stated.
Nate
Would you be better off with a set of afr 205's (out of the box) OR getting a set of Dart 225's and having them worked over ... lets say for a stock bottom end, bolton car, and a fm 14 sized cam ??? (power wise??)
another idea is mabye a set of darts, fm 14 car and fast 90 setup vs afr 205's fm 14 and ls6 intake???
just a few ideas.. tell me what you all think
another idea is mabye a set of darts, fm 14 car and fast 90 setup vs afr 205's fm 14 and ls6 intake???
just a few ideas.. tell me what you all think
Staging Lane
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: N?W
Originally Posted by Nate_Taufer
Really? So "any" 12 degree LS-1 head at 215cc will have a smaller mean cross sectional area than a comparable 215cc 15 degree LS-1 head.
That was your statement. So yes any ls1 head (i.e. 933, 806, or 241 casting) will have a larger cross sectional area than a 11 degree head with the same volume runner like i've already stated.
Nate
That was your statement. So yes any ls1 head (i.e. 933, 806, or 241 casting) will have a larger cross sectional area than a 11 degree head with the same volume runner like i've already stated.
Nate
Just because the valve angle is rolled does not "guarantee" a smaller cross section.
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Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
God I hope someday people take flow numbers and throw them out the damm window, flow benches, engine dynos, and chassis dynos do not win races. Period end of story. A very reputable builder who you guys praise on here built a motor using the ET 215 heads and our as cast 225 amde more horsepower, unported out of the box! You guys keep talking about flow numbers, we can change the combustion chamber on the heads to kill 50 horsepower and never even affect the flow numbers. Sewer pipes flow awesome on a flow bench but dont make horsepower. There are so many things that have an affect on the flow numbers, bore size, radiused inlet, calibration of bench, altitude the bench is flowing it both corrected and uncorrected, barometer, I am sure there is something I am missing. Anyways get off flow numbers a decent built engine should make an easy 450 horsepower with the 225 heads. The stock heads even ported have limitations, the chamber needs serious help, and the way they flow when tested at 55 inches with fuel added wont even compare to the Dart heads. If you want to get into flow numbers, then ask people what their heads flow on a wet bench at 55 inches of fluid, this is where the real numbers matter and this is where the reality sets in, what works on this equipment will work on the engine. Period!
P.S. If your goals are higher than the Dart heads for power then greast get the big runners made by ET, AFR whoever, but runner volume for runner volume the dart heads as cast are awesome.
P.S. If your goals are higher than the Dart heads for power then greast get the big runners made by ET, AFR whoever, but runner volume for runner volume the dart heads as cast are awesome.
So here are some of the points that have been brought out so for;
1. There are a couple of different approaches being taken by aftermarket head manufactors that affect price and performance. AFR, Dart, ET and Eldebrock? have cast their own heads, as opposed to working over existing LS1 and LS6 heads for better flow (cnc, hand port, bigger valves etc)
2. The 4 listed above (maybe more) have all changed the CC design (or valve angle) for better performance instead of just relying on larger runners for more flow.
3.There is a tendacy to compare apples to oranges (overused analogy) when comparing flow #s (which may or may not translate into increase performance) Comparing a 205 to a 225 is useless if the larger port reduces low end torque on a STREET engine.
4. Dart, by their own admission, is attemting to bridge the gap between price and performance by attempting a new design that will provide performance equal to the high price heads at the cost of the lower price heads. They are attempting to provide a head that, by it's superior CC design, will flow air equal to the CNC heads without being CNC ported (the sorce of the cost savings) We are yet to see wheter they will be succesful.
Now; If an independant participate like a performace magazine would step up and do some head to head testing with these, it would help most of us decide which ones to go with. The only deciding factor then would be the size of your budget
1. There are a couple of different approaches being taken by aftermarket head manufactors that affect price and performance. AFR, Dart, ET and Eldebrock? have cast their own heads, as opposed to working over existing LS1 and LS6 heads for better flow (cnc, hand port, bigger valves etc)
2. The 4 listed above (maybe more) have all changed the CC design (or valve angle) for better performance instead of just relying on larger runners for more flow.
3.There is a tendacy to compare apples to oranges (overused analogy) when comparing flow #s (which may or may not translate into increase performance) Comparing a 205 to a 225 is useless if the larger port reduces low end torque on a STREET engine.
4. Dart, by their own admission, is attemting to bridge the gap between price and performance by attempting a new design that will provide performance equal to the high price heads at the cost of the lower price heads. They are attempting to provide a head that, by it's superior CC design, will flow air equal to the CNC heads without being CNC ported (the sorce of the cost savings) We are yet to see wheter they will be succesful.
Now; If an independant participate like a performace magazine would step up and do some head to head testing with these, it would help most of us decide which ones to go with. The only deciding factor then would be the size of your budget
Just to add to your list:
Dart's use a single beehive design valve spring rather than doubles. A decision point since the beehive is a lighter inertia design and trade-off to the safety (perceived or otherwise) of double springs
Edelbrock had helicoils in the exhaust and rocker threaded holes.
ETP has some features on the bolt holes and other locations to help distribute the bolt loads into the aluminum casting.
All I can say is wow, what a difference a couple of years make. Anticipation of the release of the AFR's to now a market swimming in options. The LSx is now where the small block was 15 years ago as far as available options for the consumer. And best of all, we have a forum like this where the company representatives participate and provide us almost real time information on their product!!!
Dart's use a single beehive design valve spring rather than doubles. A decision point since the beehive is a lighter inertia design and trade-off to the safety (perceived or otherwise) of double springs
Edelbrock had helicoils in the exhaust and rocker threaded holes.
ETP has some features on the bolt holes and other locations to help distribute the bolt loads into the aluminum casting.
All I can say is wow, what a difference a couple of years make. Anticipation of the release of the AFR's to now a market swimming in options. The LSx is now where the small block was 15 years ago as far as available options for the consumer. And best of all, we have a forum like this where the company representatives participate and provide us almost real time information on their product!!!
Originally Posted by BOTTLE ROCKET
So here are some of the points that have been brought out so for;
1. There are a couple of different approaches being taken by aftermarket head manufactors that affect price and performance. AFR, Dart, ET and Eldebrock? have cast their own heads, as opposed to working over existing LS1 and LS6 heads for better flow (cnc, hand port, bigger valves etc)
2. The 4 listed above (maybe more) have all changed the CC design (or valve angle) for better performance instead of just relying on larger runners for more flow.
3.There is a tendacy to compare apples to oranges (overused analogy) when comparing flow #s (which may or may not translate into increase performance) Comparing a 205 to a 225 is useless if the larger port reduces low end torque on a STREET engine.
4. Dart, by their own admission, is attemting to bridge the gap between price and performance by attempting a new design that will provide performance equal to the high price heads at the cost of the lower price heads. They are attempting to provide a head that, by it's superior CC design, will flow air equal to the CNC heads without being CNC ported (the sorce of the cost savings) We are yet to see wheter they will be succesful.
Now; If an independant participate like a performace magazine would step up and do some head to head testing with these, it would help most of us decide which ones to go with. The only deciding factor then would be the size of your budget
1. There are a couple of different approaches being taken by aftermarket head manufactors that affect price and performance. AFR, Dart, ET and Eldebrock? have cast their own heads, as opposed to working over existing LS1 and LS6 heads for better flow (cnc, hand port, bigger valves etc)
2. The 4 listed above (maybe more) have all changed the CC design (or valve angle) for better performance instead of just relying on larger runners for more flow.
3.There is a tendacy to compare apples to oranges (overused analogy) when comparing flow #s (which may or may not translate into increase performance) Comparing a 205 to a 225 is useless if the larger port reduces low end torque on a STREET engine.
4. Dart, by their own admission, is attemting to bridge the gap between price and performance by attempting a new design that will provide performance equal to the high price heads at the cost of the lower price heads. They are attempting to provide a head that, by it's superior CC design, will flow air equal to the CNC heads without being CNC ported (the sorce of the cost savings) We are yet to see wheter they will be succesful.
Now; If an independant participate like a performace magazine would step up and do some head to head testing with these, it would help most of us decide which ones to go with. The only deciding factor then would be the size of your budget
IMHO
I think one thing that is missing is the Camshaft and its influence on power production on any given set of heads. Step back and really think about this.
I seem to think.... again, "IMHO", to truly make a fair comparison is to document a set of heads for its maximum HP output (just something to Quantify) I think, "IMHO", each head has its maximum limits but cannot be fully realized without a proper cam selection, custom cam engineered for a specific head and specific application goals (strip, Road racing, circle track).
Thats why some of the bigger race teams have large R&D budgets to extract maximum hp/tq or lowest lap/quarter mile based on what they have to use as far as harware is concerned.
I guarantee someone will buy ETP/dart/afr/ABC heads and bitch asking why they are dynoing, strip times or lap times are bad (realitivly speaking) because of poor combination.
I think one thing that is missing is the Camshaft and its influence on power production on any given set of heads. Step back and really think about this.
I seem to think.... again, "IMHO", to truly make a fair comparison is to document a set of heads for its maximum HP output (just something to Quantify) I think, "IMHO", each head has its maximum limits but cannot be fully realized without a proper cam selection, custom cam engineered for a specific head and specific application goals (strip, Road racing, circle track).
Thats why some of the bigger race teams have large R&D budgets to extract maximum hp/tq or lowest lap/quarter mile based on what they have to use as far as harware is concerned.
I guarantee someone will buy ETP/dart/afr/ABC heads and bitch asking why they are dynoing, strip times or lap times are bad (realitivly speaking) because of poor combination.
Last edited by tom97ss; Dec 15, 2005 at 08:41 AM.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Suburbs of Detroit
Who said Who said 11 degree heads??? Not anywhere in my post. I was told they were standard LS style valve angle heads, fully CNC ported. Dartdoesnt compare their heads to exotic valve angle cylinder heads. Dart heads are a bolt on head to go right on the stock shortblocks using standard pistons etc.
ET215's are 11 deg.
I agree that the Darts are a bolt on head designed to work better than any stock head right out of the box. I would be very surprised if there are any quality control issues with the Darts. I think they are a great buy for someone that wants to run stock cubes with an off the shelf cam. And I also agree that it isn't fair to compare them to an 11deg head. That's what really confused me by your post earlier.
I agree that the Darts are a bolt on head designed to work better than any stock head right out of the box. I would be very surprised if there are any quality control issues with the Darts. I think they are a great buy for someone that wants to run stock cubes with an off the shelf cam. And I also agree that it isn't fair to compare them to an 11deg head. That's what really confused me by your post earlier.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Suburbs of Detroit
Magazine comparisons It would be nice to see a "true" comparison, the problem is all the makers of these heads have different variables that will all be argued will have an effect on a true equal comparison, if the runners are the same size then the valves angles are different, if the valve angles are the same then the chamber volumes are different. You see all the head manufacturers have their difference of opinions as to what works, and what is effective. When it comes to designing parts and reputation, Dart is right there. They have been doing this gig for along time, Richard was pouring AMC castings for PRO STOCK in the 70's. He was parallel cuttting factory castings and furnace brazing them together to increase the runner heights and increase runner volumes 40 years ago. We designed and built the first true Billet Top Fuel Hemi heads and hold the distinction of being the first in the 4's and the first over 300 mph. Of course we left that market years ago to focus on developement of parts for the average guy and racer like you and I. When we sell an as cast cylinder head like the LS, Ford, Pro 1, Iron Eagles, whatever the case may be we work extensively on the design using a casting that we had made with literally no real shape, and spend months on top of months developing the ports, chambers, spark plug location, valve job angles, and the angles on the valves. When we get this head design the right way to make power, when then make several casting samples, in which we test in house, and with several outside engine builders who may specialize in that particular product. After all this is done and sometimes it takes over a year, we then release the part to the public. So to say as "as cast" head may or may not be good, remember it was and is designed from a ported model that was developed over a long period of time. Now that said does that mean that a little massaging wont work with the heads, sure it might help some. In a recent build we tested exactly that, and we found that it made a little bit more power but not enough to justify the cost that guys charge for this type of work. Dart is working on CNC models also for those guys who flat need more cylinder head, we know that the masses can use more that a 225 runner. But it will be awhile yet. In the meantime, we are offering an affordable alternative that will make excellent horsepower, are the ehads we making going to be good on a big turbo engine with alot of boost as compared to others, no, are they going to be good for all motor cars, street cars, smaller street turbos, superchargers, and nitrous sure.. Its all relative to what one builds. Dart uses no heli coils in their castings because the material is stronger, and denser which allows the threads to be stronger, we also roll the threads which increases the strength instead of the conventional way of tapping the holes. We have been there when it comes to inferior alloys, we have our heads on and off our race engines dozens of times a year and we have no time to either repair or heli coil them every time they strip. SO we just pay more for aerospace quality 355-T6 alloy to be used. It also allows us to have a deck that is .550 thick and not be a liability when using any power adders, and building alot of cylinder pressure via high compression.
Again I am all for the comparison article, but as I have seen on forums when one head does better than another everyone discounts the validity of the test anyways. I guess what it comes donw to is buy the heads that allow you to reach your goal and are what you can afford.
Again I am all for the comparison article, but as I have seen on forums when one head does better than another everyone discounts the validity of the test anyways. I guess what it comes donw to is buy the heads that allow you to reach your goal and are what you can afford.
Dart331 - I didn't get a chance to comment on something a few months back and would like to take a minute here. (Sorry if it's a little off topic) A while back, most of us on here were using a program called LS1edit to tune our cars. The company that released it didn't listen to what the end users wanted so now we have HPtuners. One of the reasons that HPtuners had such good success early on (and still) is that they asked (on this board) what we wanted in a tuning solution. And then they delivered. A few months ago, I saw that with you too -
It appears to me that you have listened and delivered - a good quality head at a budget price. There is a large number of people on this board that I'm sure will buy your product and be very happy with it. I hope to see some results from the larger cube guys (I'm one of them) on your ported heads too.
Another thing that I'm sure you've noticed, is that there are a lot of knowledgeable people here that will not take ANYTHING for face value. I guarantee that your product will be highly scrutinized, tested, discussed, ported, and scrutinized some more.
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
Well folks you guys didnt like the 11/32 valves so we are already making a change, although the first forty are already 11/32 and the guys who have them have no issues with them and love the heads, h.p. numbers will soon be floating around. Anyways we decided are going to go right to the 5/16 valve stem diameter and the projected valve weight should be less than the 8mm valves. This should create no disturbance and will still allow you guys to use you springs if you dont like the PSI springs we offer. All you will need is the correct retainer if ours doesnt work. The new retainers for our 11/32 valve were awesome and super light so I am sure the 5/16 piece will also be killer. They are made out of titanium and again are really trick!!
For those that want things a certain way, like using there stock parts, sure thats great buy them without the valve job and have your guys do the work, not a problem, we are flexible!
The valve debate has gone on long enough but to compare a stock valve weighs in at 99 grams, the valves we have weighed that we received from our valve supplier that replaced the LS1 stockers weighed 106 and our regular 11/32 valves we use in our small block heads both ford and chevy weigh 110. With the new 5/16 stuff we should be less than 99grams.
I know you guys have alot of concerns about valve weights, and it has been discussed alot, because of the hydraulic rollers this is an issue. Just to shed some light small fords use the larger 11/32 stems and super heavy hydraulic roller lifters and have no problems up to about 7200 and then the lifters kill the engines. With Crane drop in lifters with linkbars 7800-8000 rpm hasnt been an issue with the 11/32 valves.
Marine big block chevys with super long valves that are extremely heavy run forever making over 1400+ horsepower again with hydraulic rollers and 11/32 valves. There is several Big Chevy engines we know of running hydraulic rollers turning upwards of 7800-8000 rpm with big heavy 11/32 valves with a length of 5.475 and a head diameter of 2.300.
That said we are changing the heads to 5/16 and we will continue to make sure we offer a part that we feel is the best "out fo the box" head available.
We will also jump into the CNC ported versions later this year or early next year! Right now though we feel we are going to fill a market where people dont want to spend alot of money to build a good street strip engine, our out of the box heads will give them an oppurtunity at a lower cost alternative that will flat out meet their expectations.
If you would like pictures feel free to email darttech@dartheads.com I am not sure what you want out of the pictures but we will gladly forward them to you.
Gentlemen just wait until you start hearing results of guys who use these things you are not going to believe it...
For those that want things a certain way, like using there stock parts, sure thats great buy them without the valve job and have your guys do the work, not a problem, we are flexible!
The valve debate has gone on long enough but to compare a stock valve weighs in at 99 grams, the valves we have weighed that we received from our valve supplier that replaced the LS1 stockers weighed 106 and our regular 11/32 valves we use in our small block heads both ford and chevy weigh 110. With the new 5/16 stuff we should be less than 99grams.
I know you guys have alot of concerns about valve weights, and it has been discussed alot, because of the hydraulic rollers this is an issue. Just to shed some light small fords use the larger 11/32 stems and super heavy hydraulic roller lifters and have no problems up to about 7200 and then the lifters kill the engines. With Crane drop in lifters with linkbars 7800-8000 rpm hasnt been an issue with the 11/32 valves.
Marine big block chevys with super long valves that are extremely heavy run forever making over 1400+ horsepower again with hydraulic rollers and 11/32 valves. There is several Big Chevy engines we know of running hydraulic rollers turning upwards of 7800-8000 rpm with big heavy 11/32 valves with a length of 5.475 and a head diameter of 2.300.
That said we are changing the heads to 5/16 and we will continue to make sure we offer a part that we feel is the best "out fo the box" head available.
We will also jump into the CNC ported versions later this year or early next year! Right now though we feel we are going to fill a market where people dont want to spend alot of money to build a good street strip engine, our out of the box heads will give them an oppurtunity at a lower cost alternative that will flat out meet their expectations.
If you would like pictures feel free to email darttech@dartheads.com I am not sure what you want out of the pictures but we will gladly forward them to you.
Gentlemen just wait until you start hearing results of guys who use these things you are not going to believe it...
Another thing that I'm sure you've noticed, is that there are a lot of knowledgeable people here that will not take ANYTHING for face value. I guarantee that your product will be highly scrutinized, tested, discussed, ported, and scrutinized some more.
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 387
Likes: 1
From: Tinker till it blows, then back it off a notch, maybe!!
Let's throw another head into the mix... From the Pro filer website
News
The Pro-Filer LS6 Cylinder head will be released soon in 3 versions. A 205cc, 225cc and a larger, "mystery" port with a unique shape is coming. This new LS6 head will outperform any other aftermarket cylinder head.
It's heating up big time...
News
The Pro-Filer LS6 Cylinder head will be released soon in 3 versions. A 205cc, 225cc and a larger, "mystery" port with a unique shape is coming. This new LS6 head will outperform any other aftermarket cylinder head.
It's heating up big time...