Best heads
Best heads I know it's a questioned that's been beat to death lately, but has anyone seen any REAL data (dyno #s) on the Dart heads yet. I was hours away from calling Jegs to order a set (B.O?) when someone replied to a thread of mine saying that the Darts were not really going to be the "hot" head they were being touted as. The member (a speed shop owner) says that the Dart heads will compare more with the ls6 heads than somthing like the AFR heads. 
I want some heads that will produce 425-440hp with a small cam (224) and all the bolt ons. If that means stepping up to the AFRs or ET heads for double the price of the Darts then that's what I will do.
This is not meant to be a head bashing thread or pissing contest, but I, like everyone else want to know what products will do in the real world before we spend the money.
So common guys, someone give us some #s we can based a decision on
I want some heads that will produce 425-440hp with a small cam (224) and all the bolt ons. If that means stepping up to the AFRs or ET heads for double the price of the Darts then that's what I will do.
This is not meant to be a head bashing thread or pissing contest, but I, like everyone else want to know what products will do in the real world before we spend the money.
So common guys, someone give us some #s we can based a decision on
Ok, maybe you should stop listening to people that don't know WFT they are talking about....the bare 225's darts, after they have been cleaned up are going to be a VERY good head for 346ci efforts over 400 rwhp. For the price, one of the better offerings on the market. The bare casting flows WAY over a stock LS6 head. With a mild cam (224) and all the bolt on's (i.e. longtubes, intake manifold, throttle body, good tune, ect.) For a manual with a stock rear 400-430 rwhp is well within reason. Thanks and drive through
Originally Posted by 98darkbird
Ok, maybe you should stop listening to people that don't know WFT they are talking about....the bare 225's darts, after they have been cleaned up are going to be a VERY good head for 346ci efforts over 400 rwhp. For the price, one of the better offerings on the market. The bare casting flows WAY over a stock LS6 head. With a mild cam (224) and all the bolt on's (i.e. longtubes, intake manifold, throttle body, good tune, ect.) For a manual with a stock rear 400-430 rwhp is well within reason. Thanks and drive through
Originally Posted by 98darkbird
Ok, maybe you should stop listening to people that don't know WFT they are talking about....the bare 225's darts, after they have been cleaned up are going to be a VERY good head for 346ci efforts over 400 rwhp. For the price, one of the better offerings on the market. The bare casting flows WAY over a stock LS6 head. With a mild cam (224) and all the bolt on's (i.e. longtubes, intake manifold, throttle body, good tune, ect.) For a manual with a stock rear 400-430 rwhp is well within reason. Thanks and drive through
My previous post was from comparing the LS6 heads with the dart 225 bare castings. From a visual inspection alone you can tell that the runner design is far superior to that of the LS6. I have seen SEVERAL DIFFRENT people flow these bare 225's on diffrent benchs. All have shown over 300 cfm at .600. Those kinda flow #'s add up to power, bottom line. As stated before, over 400 rwhp...if your near sea level, with decent tune and decent conditions the ls1 will shine with these heads. NOW IF YOU HAVE TO HAVE EVER LAST LITTLE HORSEPOWER....go with the AFR or ET or some other high dollar wonder head for $2k plus. But if you looking for strong #'s from a sub $1500 complete heads, maybe this is the direction for you. Just the facts gentlemen....and if you want in 2 months when there are more real world HP results with these heads I can say I told you so.
I'm not saying Darts are junk. I think that with some work, they could be made to flow like crazy. But out of the box is another story. Jason from TSP posted the flow numbers of a set of 225's before porting:
.300 196
.400 239
.500 276
.600 296
A stock LS6 port flows:
.300 184
.400 224
.500 250
.600 257
At just a glance you can say "See! the Dart heads are awesome". Now take a step back and consider that this 225 head has 2.055 valves and the LS6 has 2.0's. Both ported, I believe the Dart has more to gain than the LS6. To reach his goals though, I don't think it's the right head choice. If your first post is true and you aren't afraid of the money - I'd pick up a set of ET 215's.
.300 196
.400 239
.500 276
.600 296
A stock LS6 port flows:
.300 184
.400 224
.500 250
.600 257
At just a glance you can say "See! the Dart heads are awesome". Now take a step back and consider that this 225 head has 2.055 valves and the LS6 has 2.0's. Both ported, I believe the Dart has more to gain than the LS6. To reach his goals though, I don't think it's the right head choice. If your first post is true and you aren't afraid of the money - I'd pick up a set of ET 215's.
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One of the things you have to realize is that the ET heads have less cross sectional area for a given runner than a traditional LSx head because of the 11 degree valve angle (cross sectional area is critical to port velocity and a huge part of making power).
I've only seen about 5 dyno sheets from cars with ETP heads and the lowest dyno'd 444 rwhp (in an A4 mind you). You will be hard pressed to find a better head on the market.
The ETP heads were not meant to be a great price for a mediocre head (which the dart's are), they are designed to be a great head for a mediocre price. Yes I know the dart's are cheaper, but you get what you pay for. With a set of the ETP 215's and a custom EDC cam, with supporting bolt ons there is no reason why you couldn't hit 460+ to the wheels.
nate
I've only seen about 5 dyno sheets from cars with ETP heads and the lowest dyno'd 444 rwhp (in an A4 mind you). You will be hard pressed to find a better head on the market.
The ETP heads were not meant to be a great price for a mediocre head (which the dart's are), they are designed to be a great head for a mediocre price. Yes I know the dart's are cheaper, but you get what you pay for. With a set of the ETP 215's and a custom EDC cam, with supporting bolt ons there is no reason why you couldn't hit 460+ to the wheels.
nate
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Verdad Gallardo Good feedback guys; as I stated before, I'm not trying to bash anybodys heads, just trying to get some feedback before spending some hard earned cash;
It really comes down to the basics of cost vs benifits and what you want to do with the car.With headers, I choose to go with KOOKs over somthing like the LGs becuse from every test I could find, there were 2-4hp average difference between them and I bought the KOOKS for 1/2 the price of the more expensive offerings. Just a personal decision
I am putting down 390hp (off the bottle) in an A4 with a set of UNPROFFESIONALLY ported LS1 heads. If I buy a set of Darts for $1300, along with gaskets, bolts and fluids, and only get 405hp, then it's not a move I personally would make. (I can warm the bottle up 50psi and make that up.)
If I need to spend an extra $850 for some AFRs (I don't know what ETP heads run) and can make 440 hp like a guy dyno'd on one of the other forums with the exact cam, headers, intake and model car I have, then THAT's the direction I would personally go.
If the Dart 225s make good peak hp, but lose ANY of their driveability, then I would pass as well.
Bottom line; I'd like to see some dyno test of the 205/225 Darts,compared at the same time with some other heads (AFR, ETP etc.) and then make a decision based on fact!!
It really comes down to the basics of cost vs benifits and what you want to do with the car.With headers, I choose to go with KOOKs over somthing like the LGs becuse from every test I could find, there were 2-4hp average difference between them and I bought the KOOKS for 1/2 the price of the more expensive offerings. Just a personal decision
I am putting down 390hp (off the bottle) in an A4 with a set of UNPROFFESIONALLY ported LS1 heads. If I buy a set of Darts for $1300, along with gaskets, bolts and fluids, and only get 405hp, then it's not a move I personally would make. (I can warm the bottle up 50psi and make that up.)
If I need to spend an extra $850 for some AFRs (I don't know what ETP heads run) and can make 440 hp like a guy dyno'd on one of the other forums with the exact cam, headers, intake and model car I have, then THAT's the direction I would personally go.
If the Dart 225s make good peak hp, but lose ANY of their driveability, then I would pass as well.
Bottom line; I'd like to see some dyno test of the 205/225 Darts,compared at the same time with some other heads (AFR, ETP etc.) and then make a decision based on fact!!
The reason that I recommend the ETP 215's for you isn't just that they should work well with your stock cubes, and they flow well. If you decide to add cubes later, they will still work. If you can afford them, ET is the way that I would go. I personally am doing a set of 6.0l's myself right now because of the reasons you stated. Dollar for horsepower, it just doesn't make sense for me to spend that much money on heads. I'm willing to spend less and I expect less than I would get from AFRs or ET's.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
From: Detroit - suburbs
I find it amazing, that when a company that has such a successful, and deep racing history and is responsible for pioneering aftermarket cylinder heads builds what the market cries out for - a alternative to the high priced heads currently out there, that make as much or more power for less money - internet "experts" decide that they know more than the deeply involved in motorsports manufacturer. Nice.
TECH Resident
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 848
Likes: 1
From: Working in the shop 24/7
Originally Posted by Malihoochie
I find it amazing, that when a company that has such a successful, and deep racing history and is responsible for pioneering aftermarket cylinder heads builds what the market cries out for - a alternative to the high priced heads currently out there, that make as much or more power for less money - internet "experts" decide that they know more than the deeply involved in motorsports manufacturer. Nice.
Ed
"awaiting some Dart 225's to play with"
Originally Posted by Malihoochie
I find it amazing, that when a company that has such a successful, and deep racing history and is responsible for pioneering aftermarket cylinder heads builds what the market cries out for - a alternative to the high priced heads currently out there, that make as much or more power for less money - internet "experts" decide that they know more than the deeply involved in motorsports manufacturer. Nice.
There are very few companies I would buy a set of heads from without solid results first but after using everything from a BBC pro 1 to a big chief over the years you guys got my money on a set of LS1 225s. I'll take my chances
TECH Resident
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 848
Likes: 1
From: Working in the shop 24/7
Originally Posted by Malihoochie
Yeah, it is a magical place.
Does anyone wonder whose the fully cnc'd heads were that Wheel2Wheel dyno'd vs. the Darts? Hmmm?
Ed, are you getting heads through AD Perf? If not who?
Does anyone wonder whose the fully cnc'd heads were that Wheel2Wheel dyno'd vs. the Darts? Hmmm?
Ed, are you getting heads through AD Perf? If not who?
Ed
-"ready to make the drop?"
ETP enuff said period. They have features no other heads have. The 11 deg valve angle in itself is a reason to buy them. I wouldn't look anywhere else for a head. They do cost a lot but it will be the best money ever spent on your ls1.