nokeman

iTrader: (30)

It seems that there has been like 6 threads started this week about this cam. Im wondering why this cam has just recently been so popular. I mean, it has always been a great cam but up untill now, I havent seen much talk about it. Oh well, just an observation.

FUN LS1

Yeah, I noticed too... After doing enough research to understand cams a little better and which lobes have more agressive profiles I gravitated to X-ER lobes. Maybe it's contagious...

BTW - I picked the TSP 233/239 (595"/.603" 112+4) because it seems to have better range than the MS3 and more power than the Torquer v2. The split looks ripe for some juice too. I'm getting a new clutch tomorrow, and we're throwing a rear end girdle on the 10-bolt. If I have time I might finish up the welds on the axle tubes and weld little steel braces between the axle tubes and the housing. (A little cheap insurance for the 4.10's) Gotta get ready for some serious torque.

walker94z28

All talk about the MS3 is good, maybe cause I own one. LOL

RoastEmSS

i want this cam so bad... im currently accepting donations if anybody has one layin around

nokeman

iTrader: (30)

haha im definately gonna agree on that^^^ but I cal DIBS!!!! Seriously though...this cam is rediculous. I cant wait to get mine in. Im already excited and its gonna be a couplpe months. How are you liking it walker??

FunLS1...yeah you better have a little insurance for all that torque!! When are you getting it in. I live in Fairfax and I would LOVE to get a ride in it before I buy it. That would be AMAZING!! Let me know!

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

personally I dont like the TSP cams, the cars I have been in arent torquey at all and that is a big turn off for me. Just know a good bit of guys not pleased with the cams compaired to some of the other options from our sponsors.

nokeman

iTrader: (30)

Really...I have never heard of a complaint with the MS3...but I guess youve been around a little longer than I have huh?

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

im not sure if there have been other changes but a lot of other complaints about cams even in general is people having to spin the motor so high to make more power. Just take a look at dyno graphs, pay no attention to peak power and just look and compair values at lower rpms and you will see what I am talking about.

nokeman

iTrader: (30)

Well thats not really a problem with how they are made. You can get cams that dont need to be spun that high to make power. I thought you meant complaints about the company and how they constructed the cams.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

yes, the general design of the cam by the numbers which give poor numbers IMO, at least the cars i have seen. spinning the motor high does have to do with how the cam is made, its all in the design. i htink some of the new revisions fixed that though, that was the big turn off for me.

nokeman

iTrader: (30)

Yeah thats how they were designed but I thought you meant the quality was bad. TSP does have plenty of cams now that dont have to be spun that high. Have you looked at those?

GA/TA

The reason everyone is all over the MS3 now is becasue of trm8or waxed that Ford GT, and all these new guy see that and want to do that to.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Cam is designed soundly, just the engines it is going into are not.

An XE-R lobe is very aggressive and can make a ton of power if the rest of the engine is properly set-up to compliment it. The 237/242 on a 113+0 is a very large cam for stock compression ratios on a 346. To make good power with the MS3, you need to run 11.8:1 CR. Yes, you can run that high on pump gas no problem with a cam that big in a 346. The difference is probably 30-40rwtq and that's everywhere in the power band.

Now, before anyone tries to point out that 11.8:1 CR will push the torque up on any car, most smaller cams will push the DCR (I contend the most important factor for determining overall power for a given cam) way past what pump gas can support, which is ~8.5-8.8:1. The difference is the MS3 or other Comp XE-R 230s/240s cams can support a load of compression on pump gas. To clarify, it's like running the stock LS1 on 8.5:1 CR instead of 10.1:1 if you run a big cam like that on a 10.1 or 10.5:1 CR. You'd not be taking full advantage of the setup and would be leaving lots of power on the table.

Now, if you put some advance in it, you can bring up the DCR, but you don't get the same top end effect. Putting a 224/228 113+0 cam against a 234/238 109+0 will give you the same DCR for a given SCR and will peak very similarily. So, the graph would look like an overlay but the 234/238 would drive like ****. Put the 234/238 on a 113+0 and bump the compression .5 or higher, and the 234 will walk away from the 224 with more average power and a much higher top end.

nokeman

iTrader: (30)

Lots of good info there.

Well I dont know where I have been the last couple months but I had no idea trmn8tr was running that cam. I have seen that video 1000 times but never even registered. Well I guess its a testiment to the cam.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

I understand a good setup but cam only these cams are not impressive through the whole rpm range as others are. Just my opinion though, doesnt mean its scripture lol

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, I totally agree with you. Cam only, it's going to suck. But, put some milled heads on it or mill the factory heads and look out.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

...and I agree with that of course that helps out a lot of cams as well too. I am still on stock compression but as you stated the design of the cam plays a huge role in still putting out good numbers on lower compression, but that will be raised soon lol

What are you guys planning to do? Heads and cam or cam only? That is prob the biggest factor and I assumed we were talking cam only. If you go with heads you dont want to cheap out on them either...

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

IMO, big duration and wide LSA only works well if you are willing to spin the motor to the moon (like in Pro Stock). In a stock displacement LS1, you'll want a cam that brings dynamic compression into the 8.5:1 range (or slightly more if you can tune around it) and with a late enough intake valve closing point to allow a high power peak. To do this usually means a fairly big duration cam with a narrow LSA, but I'm going to try a new torque-monster cam out (smaller duration) to really pump up the mid-range torque numbers of my current setup. My goal is to have DCR in the 8.7-8.8:1 range along with a IVC in the 43 degree ADBC range (at .050"). This should bring more total power under the curve with similar overlap to what I'm running now.

nokeman

iTrader: (30)

I certainly dont think this cam is going to "suck" in a cam only application. Granted, it will not be able to be used to its full potential on the street...that is unless you want to spin the daylights out of the motor. That being said, I still think it will be a strong cam to have. Personally, I definately dont plan on stopping the mod process after a cam, meaning I will be doing heads at some point. I was actually thinking of getting a custom cam ground to the same duration as the MS3, but tightening up the LSA so that I get that power in a more useable range. I have not thoroughly thought out this idea, but does it sound like something worth doing?

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, and you won't need as much compression if you do that.


Patrick, I understand where you are coming from. The MS3 is a drag type cam, though, so my thoughts were directed that way. However, I still like a wider LSA and more static compression to acheive roughly the same thing as a narrower cam and lower compression. Let me explain why.

From a drivability standpoint, the wider LSA will not be as "explosive," it'll idle better, and with lots of compression on the big duration cams, it'll make the midrange power necessary (midrange might mean different things with these cams, but eh, work with me). The big, wide cam with tons of compression can make the same DCR as a smaller, narrower cam with much less duration, but the engines are designed to work much differently, of course.

Now, if we think about an 8.7 or 8.8:1 DCR, that will give us a certain torque output on a 346, regardless of the cam. If you play with multiple cam profiles, and I know you have, you'll see there is a correlation in ABDC (whether very wide LSA, huge duration, or whatever) and the amount of static compression necessary for a given dynamic compression ratio. Keep bumping the SCR up whenever you increase duration or LSA, and eventually you'll hit the same output of 8.8:1 DCR as you would with a much tighter cam with less compression. So, if an 8.8:1 DCR, no matter how you get to it, gives you a theoretical limit of 460rwtq (regardless of RPM) on a 346 on 93 octane, you'll need more octane to pass it or cubes or something. Of course, a narrower cam will make that torque number in a lower RPM range and the larger, wider cams will try to make it higher, but since the intake runner is now the limiting factor, 4800rpm will be the torque peak on either cam. Therefore, the smaller, tighter cam may have a higher number, because 4800rpm may be 95% of it's peak, whereas the larger cam may only see 85% of it's peak at 4800. Either way, I like spinning the **** out of my motors to make HP uptop.

Oh, and the reverse is true and perhaps provides a better picture. A smaller duration, wider LSA cam will look similar to a high duration, narrow LSA cam. Specifically, a 224/228 113+0 cam and a 234/238 113+4 will give you the same DCR for a given SCR and will peak very similarily, but the 224 will idle better and provide better drivability. So, the simple answer is, I think that by going with a 234/238 on a 113+0, one is taking better advantage of the camshaft profile, but will need a sizeable bump in compression to keep torque up. Yes, it pushes the RPM range way up there, but if that's what you want, you'll need the compression to compliment it, or else it'll be like driving a stock LS1 with 8.5:1 compression; lethargic and underperforming.