What brand valve guide seals on DART LS1 heads
03-16-2006, 08:37 PM
#1
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What brand valve guide seals on DART LS1 heads I have a set of 205s on my 418 and I am having oil consumption problems and some seem to think it is the valve guides due to it smoking alot at start up. Which I thought of that too but the heads have barely over 2K miles on them. I am going to pull a couple of springs off tomorrow and check it out. I was wondering they use GM stuff or some aftermarket company. The heads were broke down for some mild port work to be done on them and it is possible that the guy that did it got the intake and exhaust seals swapped which would cause the intake seal on the exhaust valve to get screwed up due to higher heat. I torqued my rockers today and they looked to be the same color although I didnt look close and brown and black with oil on it do tend to look the same 
03-16-2006, 09:52 PM
#4
I have a set of Dart 225s on mine, they use all brown OE type seals. I think the brown ones are exhaust if I remember.. I never touched mine, straight out of the box.
I have no smoking issues at all, here are a few passes with the 225s but I broke a sprag in the trans on the first burnout and had no 2nd gear. Still ran 6.53 @ 106.7 @ 3000' DA with no 2nd gear lol. Dont see any smoke (except for the VW anyhow), the car hasnt used any oil at all and I have been beating up on it pretty well.
http://video.ls1tech.com/video/1A3F2...9911FC1EF9.htm
I have no smoking issues at all, here are a few passes with the 225s but I broke a sprag in the trans on the first burnout and had no 2nd gear. Still ran 6.53 @ 106.7 @ 3000' DA with no 2nd gear lol. Dont see any smoke (except for the VW anyhow), the car hasnt used any oil at all and I have been beating up on it pretty well.
http://video.ls1tech.com/video/1A3F2...9911FC1EF9.htm
03-16-2006, 10:00 PM
#5
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Yeah brown are exhaust. Ill have to check that out closer tomorrow. Hmm so it would seem if they are all brown then there is probably nothing wrong with the seals. Im all out of options at this point its either try this or pull the motor and I dont feel like pulling the motor just yet.
03-16-2006, 10:10 PM
#6
Pull a header and see how much oil is running down the valve stem on the exh side. A little bit running down the guide is normal. I have no idea what Dart sets the valve guide clearance at but LS1s have to be pretty tight.
One thing I did notice with these heads they dont seem to drain as well as the OE heads do, the rear cylinder of both heads had oil up over the seals after sitting overnight. That may (or may not be) be causing some issues, I know the OE heads always had a little oil puddled up back there but I never noticed it being that high.
One thing I did notice with these heads they dont seem to drain as well as the OE heads do, the rear cylinder of both heads had oil up over the seals after sitting overnight. That may (or may not be) be causing some issues, I know the OE heads always had a little oil puddled up back there but I never noticed it being that high.
03-16-2006, 10:13 PM
#7
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Yeah I noticed that too when I was messing with the rockers today. The back two cyilnders had oil filled all the way up to the hole where the head bolt goes in. I wasnt aware of any special clearance issues. I thought you just pulled the old ones off and tapped the new ones on. On mine the oil puddle wasnt to the top of the seal which would allow oil onto the stem. It just so happens that I have a new set of manifold gaskets I need to put on so when I pull the header to the side Ill take a peek in there and see if I can see anything.
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03-16-2006, 10:20 PM
#8
Mine was right up to the top of the rearmost two seals after sitting overnight, thats why I noticed it. I'm sure with it running it gets higher. My engine my be tilted a litte different then yours though so it may be worse looking..
I am referring to the valve stem to guide clearance, the seals just push on
I had a set of those early Patriot heads with the teflon seals and super loose guides and the car smoked like a freight train lol, even after switching to OE seals.
I am referring to the valve stem to guide clearance, the seals just push on
I had a set of those early Patriot heads with the teflon seals and super loose guides and the car smoked like a freight train lol, even after switching to OE seals.
03-16-2006, 10:37 PM
#9
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Looks like Ill do the seal swap and if that doesnt fix it then Ill just have to pull the motor and do a LS2 418 and use my iron block for a project later on down the road.
03-17-2006, 11:49 AM
#10
Seals are made by US Seal, but they don't sell retail. They are one piece seal/seats. All are brown. The two problems that have occurred so far, appear to be on heads where the seals were removed and re-used. This may come down to the amount of care used when removing them. I have done the same thing, so I am obviously interested in why this problem has occurred. However, when I pulled my seals I was very careful and wrapped the seal in a towel and then used pliers to carefully remove. I also measured the OD after removing and they were within 0.001 of being round.
One other thing to check, where are your shims? The shims from Dart are above the seal/seat, if someone put them under the seat that is likely your problem as it will raise the seal on the guide.
One other thing to check, where are your shims? The shims from Dart are above the seal/seat, if someone put them under the seat that is likely your problem as it will raise the seal on the guide.
Last edited by vettenuts; 03-17-2006 at 11:55 AM.
03-17-2006, 02:59 PM
#11
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I will check this out next week when I pull a couple of springs to inspect. I wasnt aware that they used shims. Are you talking about shims to set spring height? Ill be extremely careful when I pull mine off and see how it looks and post up some pics. Ill order a brand new set of brown seals. Yeah when I replaced the valve guide seals on my old 5.3 heads the dumbasses gave me the seals that dont have the seat on them and it cost me three extra days getting it back together
03-17-2006, 03:16 PM
#12
Here you go. The first photo shows assembled springs (left), springs without retainers (middle) and the shims on the seals (right). (The shim location is critical for this setup, they can't be under the seals) The seals are like the stock 02+ seals from GM.
Second photo shows the shims/seals in the checking springs that are easier to see through.
I am very interested in what you find, I have a funny feeling there was a problem with how your heads were setup since the out of the box installations have not been reporting similar findings.
Second photo shows the shims/seals in the checking springs that are easier to see through.
I am very interested in what you find, I have a funny feeling there was a problem with how your heads were setup since the out of the box installations have not been reporting similar findings.
03-17-2006, 03:40 PM
#13
One other note, the valves in the Dart heads set up slightly differently, for that reason the out of the box shims for the exhaust and intake are different to account for the valves. If you are going to pull the covers and maybe the springs, check this as well. Mine had 0.045" shims on the intake and 0.060" on the exhaust for reference.
04-17-2006, 04:30 PM
#17
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Seals Ok to shed some light on this subject, people keep thinking there is weird things regarding oil drainback and valve seals...
In regards to the drain backs, there is no way possible that our head is holding oil up top, and if it did on ours it will on the stock heads. The heads have holes above the head bolts, those holes directly drain oil back to the lifter valley. The one on each end is lower than the valve seals, and lower than the spring pad, almost at any angle you hold the cylinder head.
Valve seals, we buy these from US Seal as Vette Nuts said, the seal they supply is the same seal used on OE LS heads all over the country. It is made for a 8mm valve, and designed to work on ours as well as OE. WE made the guides to allow the stock seal to work, and to give it grip to stay on, which wont matter as the spring holds it down anyways.
The reason for installing the shim after the seal is installed, is very simple, if you shim under it, you raise the seal and possible not give it any grip on the guide, probably not a big deal again as the spring will hold it down, we just prefer the other way.
There has never been an issue of oil consumption caused by the heads. The only oil in the head come from the pushrods, through the rockers and back into the heads. Now if one doesnt put thread sealer, or loctite on the fasteners that go directly into the runners, then you could see some oil smoke, and if you dont run seals, it wont hurt anything, just a little initial start up smoke, and occasion splash up on the valve stem might give it some smoke. Racers have ran their motors without valve seals for years, without oiling issues.
Again I will stress: IF YOU GUYS HAVE PROBLEMS, CALL US, EMAIL US, ASK US ABOUT THEM, WE MADE THEM WE KNOW THE PARTS, Asking on here more than likely will not yield you the correct information, just a bunch of misinformed guess's, that if thought out really well would not make any sense in the first place.
John
DART
In regards to the drain backs, there is no way possible that our head is holding oil up top, and if it did on ours it will on the stock heads. The heads have holes above the head bolts, those holes directly drain oil back to the lifter valley. The one on each end is lower than the valve seals, and lower than the spring pad, almost at any angle you hold the cylinder head.
Valve seals, we buy these from US Seal as Vette Nuts said, the seal they supply is the same seal used on OE LS heads all over the country. It is made for a 8mm valve, and designed to work on ours as well as OE. WE made the guides to allow the stock seal to work, and to give it grip to stay on, which wont matter as the spring holds it down anyways.
The reason for installing the shim after the seal is installed, is very simple, if you shim under it, you raise the seal and possible not give it any grip on the guide, probably not a big deal again as the spring will hold it down, we just prefer the other way.
There has never been an issue of oil consumption caused by the heads. The only oil in the head come from the pushrods, through the rockers and back into the heads. Now if one doesnt put thread sealer, or loctite on the fasteners that go directly into the runners, then you could see some oil smoke, and if you dont run seals, it wont hurt anything, just a little initial start up smoke, and occasion splash up on the valve stem might give it some smoke. Racers have ran their motors without valve seals for years, without oiling issues.
Again I will stress: IF YOU GUYS HAVE PROBLEMS, CALL US, EMAIL US, ASK US ABOUT THEM, WE MADE THEM WE KNOW THE PARTS, Asking on here more than likely will not yield you the correct information, just a bunch of misinformed guess's, that if thought out really well would not make any sense in the first place.
John
DART
04-17-2006, 10:56 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
Ok to shed some light on this subject, people keep thinking there is weird things regarding oil drainback and valve seals...
In regards to the drain backs, there is no way possible that our head is holding oil up top, and if it did on ours it will on the stock heads. The heads have holes above the head bolts, those holes directly drain oil back to the lifter valley. The one on each end is lower than the valve seals, and lower than the spring pad, almost at any angle you hold the cylinder head.
Valve seals, we buy these from US Seal as Vette Nuts said, the seal they supply is the same seal used on OE LS heads all over the country. It is made for a 8mm valve, and designed to work on ours as well as OE. WE made the guides to allow the stock seal to work, and to give it grip to stay on, which wont matter as the spring holds it down anyways.
The reason for installing the shim after the seal is installed, is very simple, if you shim under it, you raise the seal and possible not give it any grip on the guide, probably not a big deal again as the spring will hold it down, we just prefer the other way.
There has never been an issue of oil consumption caused by the heads. The only oil in the head come from the pushrods, through the rockers and back into the heads. Now if one doesnt put thread sealer, or loctite on the fasteners that go directly into the runners, then you could see some oil smoke, and if you dont run seals, it wont hurt anything, just a little initial start up smoke, and occasion splash up on the valve stem might give it some smoke. Racers have ran their motors without valve seals for years, without oiling issues.
Again I will stress: IF YOU GUYS HAVE PROBLEMS, CALL US, EMAIL US, ASK US ABOUT THEM, WE MADE THEM WE KNOW THE PARTS, Asking on here more than likely will not yield you the correct information, just a bunch of misinformed guess's, that if thought out really well would not make any sense in the first place.
John
DART
In regards to the drain backs, there is no way possible that our head is holding oil up top, and if it did on ours it will on the stock heads. The heads have holes above the head bolts, those holes directly drain oil back to the lifter valley. The one on each end is lower than the valve seals, and lower than the spring pad, almost at any angle you hold the cylinder head.
Valve seals, we buy these from US Seal as Vette Nuts said, the seal they supply is the same seal used on OE LS heads all over the country. It is made for a 8mm valve, and designed to work on ours as well as OE. WE made the guides to allow the stock seal to work, and to give it grip to stay on, which wont matter as the spring holds it down anyways.
The reason for installing the shim after the seal is installed, is very simple, if you shim under it, you raise the seal and possible not give it any grip on the guide, probably not a big deal again as the spring will hold it down, we just prefer the other way.
There has never been an issue of oil consumption caused by the heads. The only oil in the head come from the pushrods, through the rockers and back into the heads. Now if one doesnt put thread sealer, or loctite on the fasteners that go directly into the runners, then you could see some oil smoke, and if you dont run seals, it wont hurt anything, just a little initial start up smoke, and occasion splash up on the valve stem might give it some smoke. Racers have ran their motors without valve seals for years, without oiling issues.
Again I will stress: IF YOU GUYS HAVE PROBLEMS, CALL US, EMAIL US, ASK US ABOUT THEM, WE MADE THEM WE KNOW THE PARTS, Asking on here more than likely will not yield you the correct information, just a bunch of misinformed guess's, that if thought out really well would not make any sense in the first place.
John
DART
wow
k
04-19-2006, 05:28 PM
#20
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I have a question, I just bought Dart 225's and I'm putting PRC Dual springs on the heads, can I use the stock Dart seals with seats or should I switch them out and put the hardened seats with the stem seals