View Poll Results: Are the Dart heads worth the extra money?
YES-Dart's are much better!
149
45.02%
NO-PRC LS6 CNC heads are good enough!
182
54.98%
Voters: 331. You may not vote on this poll
Are Darts worth $600 more than TSP's LS6 heads?
#24
Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA
We're all shocked that you don't like any other CNC cylinder heads besides AFR's. We would like to extend an invitation to you personally, Patrick, to join us on the engine dyno in the next few weeks. We will be dynoing the as-cast Darts, AFR 205's, and a set of our PRC 1.0 LS6 heads on a stock short-block. It would be nice to have a few more witnesses to see the cylinder head swap procedure, as well as all of the results, no matter what they are. It would be even better for you to be there since you're so fond of the AFR's, and continually have the need to down our products. Feel free to give us a call if you'd like to be there, and we'll let you know on the exact date and time.
It's a pretty simple comparison. Your always quick to down our cylinder heads like they won't make good hp... Here's your chance to get data to support your claim.
The PRC stage 1 LS6 heads flow great air flow for the $$ & make very nice power gains.
It's a pretty simple comparison. Your always quick to down our cylinder heads like they won't make good hp... Here's your chance to get data to support your claim.
The PRC stage 1 LS6 heads flow great air flow for the $$ & make very nice power gains.
#25
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Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA
Galen,
Currently we aren't offering anymore cnc ported Dart heads. Maybe at some point we will do them again, but currently we've stopped the CNC porting of Dart castings.
Currently we aren't offering anymore cnc ported Dart heads. Maybe at some point we will do them again, but currently we've stopped the CNC porting of Dart castings.
What happened?
#26
LS1 Tech Administrator
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Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA
We're all shocked that you don't like any other CNC cylinder heads besides AFR's. We would like to extend an invitation to you personally, Patrick, to join us on the engine dyno in the next few weeks. We will be dynoing the as-cast Darts, AFR 205's, and a set of our PRC 1.0 LS6 heads on a stock short-block. It would be nice to have a few more witnesses to see the cylinder head swap procedure, as well as all of the results, no matter what they are. It would be even better for you to be there since you're so fond of the AFR's, and continually have the need to down our products. Feel free to give us a call if you'd like to be there, and we'll let you know on the exact date and time.
It's a pretty simple comparison. Your always quick to down our cylinder heads like they won't make good hp... Here's your chance to get data to support your claim.
The PRC stage 1 LS6 heads flow great air flow for the $$ & make very nice power gains.
It's a pretty simple comparison. Your always quick to down our cylinder heads like they won't make good hp... Here's your chance to get data to support your claim.
The PRC stage 1 LS6 heads flow great air flow for the $$ & make very nice power gains.
Now on to the next order of business. How I feel about your products, specifically your CNC'd cylinder heads. Actually, my feelings are mostly positive, especially with your new LS6 product. I think you guys have nailed the elusive combination of excellent head flow and strong value.
But when someone takes your LS6 heads, adds the competition valve job (worth the money) and upgrades to the better springs, they are within a hundred dollars or two to the Darts. That said, I think the Darts offer comparable flow numbers, slightly smaller runner sizes and more room to grow for future porting. So in this case, it's not that I dislike the PRC CNC'd LS6 heads, I like them a lot, I just think that for a few hundred dollars more, I'd rather go with the Darts.
It's common knowledge that I am a fan of AFR, but actually, I'm a fan of anything that makes solid, consistent power. That said, one of the best cylinder heads I've ever seen, were the PRC 5.3L heads you sold to Jason Reibert from Thunder Racing. Although it was obvious that they had extensive hand porting beyond the CNC job, it was also obvious that they outflowed and outpowered my AFR 205s. No argument here. A testimony to the capabilities of your porters.
So in a nutshell, although I'm a big fan of the aftermarket heads like ET and AFR, I've grown to appreciate the new CNC 243 product from PRC and dare I say Patriot? What I'm not as big a fan of are some of the cams you sell to the low compression street/strip crowd. I like the XE-R lobes you use and I don't have a problem with the power the cams make, but I think you guys are missing the mark on maximizing the area under the curve. Without lots of dynamic compression, your cams like the MS3 tend to sacrifice lots of mid-range torque in exchange for small gains in top-end power. I think with a little more focus on cams that build dynamic compression while maintaining top-end performance, your cylinder heads would not be blamed for the soft torque numbers your packages are currently producing. Again, like the cylinder heads, not crazy about those large-duration, wide-LSA cams. Better cams would make your heads/cam packages look like the best deal going IMO.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
#27
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I'm a little bias as i have the PRC heads, but i don't think the darts would have done any better. Hands down the best for the buck. I made some great number with my combo and its pretty basic out of the box stuff without any extra work done to any of the parts. I really think there is probally another 25 plus hp in my combo with a few small changes, Looks like be taking the heads off , fly cutting the pistons, switching to 1 7/8 headers and getting some bullets mufflers and this budget H/C will make power with the best of them. Jason i'll be giving you a call about the headers.
Steve
Steve
#29
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I understand what your saying Patrick & thats the main reason I'm on the dyno next week. We have several different camshafts going together that should work really well & help out DCR.
We just recently changed up the LS6 head to include extra compression while not losing p/v for guys wanting extra compression. This change combined with a more dcr friendly camshaft should make the package even more potent!
It just seems like at times guys choose a cylinder head based off false information given on this site. We will be comparing each of these cylinder heads on the same day to try to get a idea of which ones make power & where.
There's a lot more things to consider in a cylinder head rather than just flow & runner size. I'll take a head that has a bigger runner & doesn't back up by .610" over a small runner that backs up early any day.
I guess all I'm saying is to many people get caught up in small runners & don't really understand how many different things occur in a cylinder head.
Ask some of the head gurus from the School of Automotive Machinist & they'll tell you a cylinder head that doesn't try to backup, or does it later typically makes better power on the dyno. Even if it means making the runner larger...
We just recently changed up the LS6 head to include extra compression while not losing p/v for guys wanting extra compression. This change combined with a more dcr friendly camshaft should make the package even more potent!
It just seems like at times guys choose a cylinder head based off false information given on this site. We will be comparing each of these cylinder heads on the same day to try to get a idea of which ones make power & where.
There's a lot more things to consider in a cylinder head rather than just flow & runner size. I'll take a head that has a bigger runner & doesn't back up by .610" over a small runner that backs up early any day.
I guess all I'm saying is to many people get caught up in small runners & don't really understand how many different things occur in a cylinder head.
Ask some of the head gurus from the School of Automotive Machinist & they'll tell you a cylinder head that doesn't try to backup, or does it later typically makes better power on the dyno. Even if it means making the runner larger...
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
#30
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Cant really say i agree with you, here is an example of the darts on a smaller cam. I would rather leave 10 FtPound on the table if i could have 30 plus hp. I know this isn't apples to apples its just an example.
I thought you bought PP heads?
I thought you bought PP heads?
#31
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I think I'd take that bet SVT. I don't think you'd see the torque gains your expecting. Making the runner smaller doesn't necessarily get extra torque if you give up air flow at the same time.
That would be a interesting comparison.
That would be a interesting comparison.
Originally Posted by SVT THIS
I would gamble to say you could've seen close to 400tq if you had a set of Dart 205s or 225s steveb. I'm not positive, but the Darts seem to have an advantage when it comes to torque over the GM cast LS6 heads.
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
#32
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Originally Posted by steveb
Cant really say i agree with you, here is an example of the darts on a smaller cam. I would rather leave 10 FtPound on the table if i could have 30 plus hp. I know this isn't apples to apples its just an example.
I thought you bought PP heads?
I thought you bought PP heads?
I bought my Dart heads from Jason as well last Christmas. Also, don't forget I am not running 25% underdrive, only 10% and I am running 2-3/4 cats as well.
#33
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Originally Posted by vettenuts
Hey, I think I recognize that dyno
I bought my Dart heads from Jason as well last Christmas. Also, don't forget I am not running 25% underdrive, only 10% and I am running 2-3/4 cats as well.
I bought my Dart heads from Jason as well last Christmas. Also, don't forget I am not running 25% underdrive, only 10% and I am running 2-3/4 cats as well.
#36
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Originally Posted by vettenuts
Hey, I think I recognize that dyno
I bought my Dart heads from Jason as well last Christmas. Also, don't forget I am not running 25% underdrive, only 10% and I am running 2-3/4 cats as well.
I bought my Dart heads from Jason as well last Christmas. Also, don't forget I am not running 25% underdrive, only 10% and I am running 2-3/4 cats as well.
#37
LS1 Tech Administrator
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Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA
There's a lot more things to consider in a cylinder head rather than just flow & runner size. I'll take a head that has a bigger runner & doesn't back up by .610" over a small runner that backs up early any day.
I guess all I'm saying is to many people get caught up in small runners & don't really understand how many different things occur in a cylinder head.
Ask some of the head gurus from the School of Automotive Machinist & they'll tell you a cylinder head that doesn't try to backup, or does it later typically makes better power on the dyno. Even if it means making the runner larger...
I guess all I'm saying is to many people get caught up in small runners & don't really understand how many different things occur in a cylinder head.
Ask some of the head gurus from the School of Automotive Machinist & they'll tell you a cylinder head that doesn't try to backup, or does it later typically makes better power on the dyno. Even if it means making the runner larger...
When you run your tests on the cylinder heads, it will be interesting to see what combustion chamber cc you're going to run for all the heads and what camshaft you choose.
#39
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Originally Posted by Galen
Jason, I would also like to see you stick a set of your Stage 2 Darts on there to see how much of an increase you have over the as cast Darts. If you need to borrow a pair, mine are not on the car yet...but may be in the next 24 hrs, so be quick to let me know!
Galen
Galen
#40
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Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA
We're all shocked that you don't like any other CNC cylinder heads besides AFR's. We would like to extend an invitation to you personally, Patrick, to join us on the engine dyno in the next few weeks. We will be dynoing the as-cast Darts, AFR 205's, and a set of our PRC 1.0 LS6 heads on a stock short-block. It would be nice to have a few more witnesses to see the cylinder head swap procedure, as well as all of the results, no matter what they are. It would be even better for you to be there since you're so fond of the AFR's, and continually have the need to down our products. Feel free to give us a call if you'd like to be there, and we'll let you know on the exact date and time.
It's a pretty simple comparison. Your always quick to down our cylinder heads like they won't make good hp... Here's your chance to get data to support your claim.
The PRC stage 1 LS6 heads flow great air flow for the $$ & make very nice power gains.
It's a pretty simple comparison. Your always quick to down our cylinder heads like they won't make good hp... Here's your chance to get data to support your claim.
The PRC stage 1 LS6 heads flow great air flow for the $$ & make very nice power gains.