View Poll Results: Are the Dart heads worth the extra money?
YES-Dart's are much better!
149
45.02%
NO-PRC LS6 CNC heads are good enough!
182
54.98%
Voters: 331. You may not vote on this poll
Are Darts worth $600 more than TSP's LS6 heads?
#61
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I have a set of PRC Stage 3 Dart 225's, at first with the new LS2 402 I had built, there was smoking at idle, but it seems to have gone away from what I can tell, 700 miles on the setup now. It may have just needed more time.
I will be keeping an eye on my set to see if they burn any more oil over time.
I will be keeping an eye on my set to see if they burn any more oil over time.
#62
10 Second Club
iTrader: (3)
Originally Posted by Galen
Hate to say...I am the 3rd one with smoking problems with the Stage 2 ported Darts. This is my daily driver and I am going through about 1/2 quart per day. I pulled the intake off and there is oil sitting on top of each valve. I deleted the entire PCV system with no effect. I have absolutely no noticable blowby. I removed the rocker bolts and re-applied sealant twice. TSP is shipping me a new set of ported LS6 heads early next week and the Darts are going back to them. TSP has been very helpful and is doing everything in their power to set things right by me.
Galen
Galen
What causes them to smoke. I mean, obviously oil leaking, but is there a way to check before I slap mine on? I DONT want to have to do this again.
#63
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Originally Posted by Galen
Hate to say...I am the 3rd one with smoking problems with the Stage 2 ported Darts. This is my daily driver and I am going through about 1/2 quart per day. I pulled the intake off and there is oil sitting on top of each valve. I deleted the entire PCV system with no effect. I have absolutely no noticable blowby. I removed the rocker bolts and re-applied sealant twice. TSP is shipping me a new set of ported LS6 heads early next week and the Darts are going back to them. TSP has been very helpful and is doing everything in their power to set things right by me.
Galen
Galen
#64
I did not disassemble the heads prior to installing them. With duel springs, it is almost impossible to see the seals without removing the springs. I was told by TSP they require the 98 style seals due to the duel spring setup. I was going to change them, but couldn't find any available in my local area and just got tired of the fight. Here is a pic of the oil sitting on top of my intake valve. This is after reapplying thread sealant twice and deleting the entire PCV system.
Here is how much oil we got off one valve using the mighty vac. Some dripped out prior to the picture.
I really don't know what is going on. If it is the seals/guides, they are worse than any I have ever seen. If it is that I just was unable to seal the rocker bolts, then the holes are abviously WAY out of spec. There would be no reason to require more sealant than I used both times. Once again, TSP has been awesome through this trying to help me out and have gone above and beyond trying to fix the situation.
Galen
Here is how much oil we got off one valve using the mighty vac. Some dripped out prior to the picture.
I really don't know what is going on. If it is the seals/guides, they are worse than any I have ever seen. If it is that I just was unable to seal the rocker bolts, then the holes are abviously WAY out of spec. There would be no reason to require more sealant than I used both times. Once again, TSP has been awesome through this trying to help me out and have gone above and beyond trying to fix the situation.
Galen
#65
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
What is interesting in the photo is that it appears the entire intake port is wet, making me think it is not the valve seals. That is a lot of oil. I just can't figure out why the Stage II heads seem to have this issue, and the out of box don't. By the way, the seals that come with the Darts are exactly like the 02 stockers. You can see them on the right in the photo.
#66
Oil was also all in my intake. That is why I deleted the PCV system. I figure that, at operating temps and conditions, the oil is being vaporized and splashed around, coating everything. I have read about some unported heads smoking more than normal at startup, and even the shopcar at TSP is having these issues with 225s out of the box. If the porting caused any of these problems, then why doesn't everyone who has ported heads have these problems? To me, I feel this is a Dart issue and not the fault of TSP. At this point, I am just happy to be swapping them out to some LS6 style heads that never have these issues.
Galen
P.S. I am supposed to have the 98 style seals due to duel spring clearance.
Galen
P.S. I am supposed to have the 98 style seals due to duel spring clearance.
#68
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Originally Posted by Galen
Oil was also all in my intake. That is why I deleted the PCV system. I figure that, at operating temps and conditions, the oil is being vaporized and splashed around, coating everything. I have read about some unported heads smoking more than normal at startup, and even the shopcar at TSP is having these issues with 225s out of the box. If the porting caused any of these problems, then why doesn't everyone who has ported heads have these problems? To me, I feel this is a Dart issue and not the fault of TSP. At this point, I am just happy to be swapping them out to some LS6 style heads that never have these issues.
Galen
P.S. I am supposed to have the 98 style seals due to duel spring clearance.
Galen
P.S. I am supposed to have the 98 style seals due to duel spring clearance.
#70
LS1Tech Premium Sponsor
iTrader: (4)
Randy we won't be building anymore of these ported Darts for customers. Call me Monday & I'll get you the best deal on whatever brand cylinder head you want! We're in a very competitive market & I can tell you we won't sell a product that could have issues like this. We're working to replace every set of smoking cnc ported darts with our LS6 cylinder head.
The worst part is the cnc ported head really flowed well & made good power, but if one person has a problem that's to many for me! The only time we take LS6 heads back is if UPS damages them! I pride myself on our cylinder heads NOT coming back for ANY reason! If we have smoking issues from even one set it's just to many!
The worst part is the cnc ported head really flowed well & made good power, but if one person has a problem that's to many for me! The only time we take LS6 heads back is if UPS damages them! I pride myself on our cylinder heads NOT coming back for ANY reason! If we have smoking issues from even one set it's just to many!
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
#71
LS1Tech Premium Sponsor
iTrader: (4)
Galen,
We've checked the clearances on several sets of heads & they all appear to be just fine on guide clearance. What your seeing is exactly what I've seen here. Intake runners covered with oil almost like it's leaking into the port somehow. I thought it might be the smaller oil drains on the Dart castings, but the guys at Dart said they've spent tons of r&d time tweaking those oil drains to make sure it doesn't have a issue.
I can't tell you guys how many nights I've missed sleep just trying to come up with a reason for why this is occuring. We had tons of customers wanting these ported darts & even a magazine story setup, but the most important thing is making a product the customer likes & doesn't have ANY issues with!
We've checked the clearances on several sets of heads & they all appear to be just fine on guide clearance. What your seeing is exactly what I've seen here. Intake runners covered with oil almost like it's leaking into the port somehow. I thought it might be the smaller oil drains on the Dart castings, but the guys at Dart said they've spent tons of r&d time tweaking those oil drains to make sure it doesn't have a issue.
I can't tell you guys how many nights I've missed sleep just trying to come up with a reason for why this is occuring. We had tons of customers wanting these ported darts & even a magazine story setup, but the most important thing is making a product the customer likes & doesn't have ANY issues with!
Originally Posted by Galen
I did not disassemble the heads prior to installing them. With duel springs, it is almost impossible to see the seals without removing the springs. I was told by TSP they require the 98 style seals due to the duel spring setup. I was going to change them, but couldn't find any available in my local area and just got tired of the fight. Here is a pic of the oil sitting on top of my intake valve. This is after reapplying thread sealant twice and deleting the entire PCV system.
Here is how much oil we got off one valve using the mighty vac. Some dripped out prior to the picture.
I really don't know what is going on. If it is the seals/guides, they are worse than any I have ever seen. If it is that I just was unable to seal the rocker bolts, then the holes are abviously WAY out of spec. There would be no reason to require more sealant than I used both times. Once again, TSP has been awesome through this trying to help me out and have gone above and beyond trying to fix the situation.
Galen
Here is how much oil we got off one valve using the mighty vac. Some dripped out prior to the picture.
I really don't know what is going on. If it is the seals/guides, they are worse than any I have ever seen. If it is that I just was unable to seal the rocker bolts, then the holes are abviously WAY out of spec. There would be no reason to require more sealant than I used both times. Once again, TSP has been awesome through this trying to help me out and have gone above and beyond trying to fix the situation.
Galen
__________________
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
#77
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Well, it looks like my PRC Stage 3 Dart 225's are indeed burning oil, it's not smoking that I can see, but here's a pic of my #8 plug, the plugs have 600 miles on them....
I noticed last night when I get on the gas the oil pressure would go down instead of up for some reason, so I just checked the oil level and it's down about 1-2 quarts, and I just changed the oil about 250 miles ago.
Jason - I will PM you about what I want to do, thanks for taking care of this issue with everyone, VERY stand up thing to do!!
I noticed last night when I get on the gas the oil pressure would go down instead of up for some reason, so I just checked the oil level and it's down about 1-2 quarts, and I just changed the oil about 250 miles ago.
Jason - I will PM you about what I want to do, thanks for taking care of this issue with everyone, VERY stand up thing to do!!
#78
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Just pulled one of my plugs and the dipstick. My oil is OK and my plug is clean, and I went one heat range cooler too. I noticed you are running the tapered plug rather than the gasketed, will those sit correctly in the combustion chamber?
Also, there was another porting vendor (on another forum) that was working with the Darts as well, has any checked with him to see if he has run into this? Also, has anyone put together a list of casting dates to see if there is any correlation there?
Also, has anyone tried a seal change to see if that solves the problem?
Also, there was another porting vendor (on another forum) that was working with the Darts as well, has any checked with him to see if he has run into this? Also, has anyone put together a list of casting dates to see if there is any correlation there?
Also, has anyone tried a seal change to see if that solves the problem?
#79
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Just tried something for curiousity, I measured the ID of the stock GM seal (02 version) and the Dart seal. The Dart seal as supplied with the head has a smaller ID. Very hard to measure because it is rubber, but I am getting about 0.010" difference between the two.